ITISSEEN,BUTTHERESNOONESEEINGIT

HanvandenBoogaardspeakingwithTonyParsons AmbassadeHotel,Amsterdam April4,2005 All kinds of teachers in East and West claim to be speaking from the non dualperspective. Butin reality its not amatter ofperspective, because its not about opinion, belief, judgement or experience. A teacher can only say whatheis,andthereforewhateverybodyelseis. TonyParsons way of expressing truth might very well be the most radical andconsequentialofall.Howeverfriendly,ordinaryandapproachableheis as a person, his teaching leaves no hope for the individual. Listening tohis message,youareleftwithnothingtoholdonto.Althoughhismessagestirs up controversy, more and more people start coming to his meetings. And nobodystaysindifferenttowhathehearsasTonyspeakshisnomind. Inthemeetings,oneofthequestionsIkeepgettingis:Sowhatyouresaying isthatIcantdoanything,andthatIhavenoresponsibility?.AndIkeepon repeating:no,Imnotsayingyoucantdoanything,becausethatwouldimply thattheressomeonewhocantdoanything. Buttherealityis:there is noone.Thatissomethingtotallydifferent. Lots of socalled Advaita people just hate this message. They keep coming back to the argument that what Im saying promotes laziness, that its a terrible, awful thing to say. They dont comprehend whats basically, fundamentallybeingsaid,and thatisthatthereisnochoice,thereisnofree will. There is no one. They totally and utterly still believe in the reality of individual choice. For them to hear that there is no one.its impossible for themtohearthat.Sotheyllgoonarguinginduality. Ontheotherhand:Iknowofpeoplewhohavecomeonceandseenittotally. Others come to the meetings a few times, and then the whole idea of individualitysimplydisappears.Itfallsapart. Awakeningsarehappeningallovertheplaceatthistime.Andwhatpeoplesay isthatwhenithappens,theyrealizethatitsabsolutelynaturalandordinary. Nobigdeal,inasense.Inanotherway,itsabsolutelywonderful. Youmakeadistinctionbetweenawakeningandliberation. WebecomeseparateandtakeonthethoughtIamaseparatepersonfroma veryearlyage.Andatthatmomentofseparation,seekingstarts.Weseekfor that which we think weve lost. And so we grow up in a world where were taught to endeavor and make our lives work, and then it is possible that we begin to look for something other than being successful in the world, and enlightenmentisoneofthethingsthatwegofor.

Enlightenmentbeinganotherwayofbeing successful. Right.Andthenweusuallygotoateacherthatteachesusthattheresstillan individual with choice. Most teachings are like that. Its very rare to find a teaching likethisone,thatissoradical.Forme,theseekeristhere,seeking, andthencomesamomentwhenthereisnoseeker,thereisnotime,thereis justOneness.Andthatisnotseenbytheseeker,butissimplyseenbynoone. That, to me, is awakening. And forever after that theres a totally different perception, but on a subtle level theres still a person, theres still a seeking goingon,awantingtoknowwhathashappened.Thepersoncomesbackand wantstoownwhatsjusthappened.Hedoesntunderstandit.Andsotheresa period of integration of what happened, and the person wants to own that. People can stay in that for the rest of their lives. Or liberation can happen, whichistherealizationthattheseekerwhowantstoownthatisalsoOneness. And when that is realized, it is suddenly seen by no one that there is only Oneness,andthenitsallover. In liberation there no longer is a sense of there being a separate individual. Liberation is the complete end of the sense of separation. But theres still a bodymindorganismthathasconditionedmemories,and hasresponsesand preferences.Thatsaliveness.Thatgoeson. Emotionsstillkeeppoppingup. Oh absolutely. Anything can happen. Nothing is denied. The difference betweentheliberatedone,orrather:liberation,andindividualityisthatwhen anemotionlikeangerarises,itjustarisesfornoone,butallthetimetheres anindividualwhothinksitshisangerthathappeningtohim,thatheownsit. In individuality theres always an ownership of everything. In liberation theresnoonethatownstheanger,butstilltheangercanarise,asitdidbefore fornoone.Inindividualitythesocalledpersonkeepsthinkingitshappening tohim.Inliberationitssimplyanger, happeningtonoone. Isnttherestillasubtledualitypresentthen,becauseontheonesidethereis egorelatedanger,andontheotherhandtheressomethingwitnessingthis. Well,thatshowitfeels,butin liberation there isnowitness.Thatsover. In awakeningtherecanbeawitness,andevenbeforeawakeningtherecanbea witness, but in liberation there isnt even something that is aware of manifestation.Thereisjustbeing,whateveris. Andthisisnotcomprehensible.. No, its a total mystery. And of course itgoesagainst most teachings, which teachthatinenlightenmentthereis noanger,thereisnothinking. This is ignorance. This is an idea of what perfection should look like. In liberation,nothingisdenied. Everythingisperfect.

Everythingisperfect,butitisnthappeningtoanyoneanylonger. Whenyoureasmallchild,theresalsonoonetowhomthingshappen. No,justbeing. Doyouthinkitsanaturalandunavoidabledevelopmentthatachildgrows intothisillusionofbeinganindividual? Yes,Iabsolutelydo.Onenesswantstoplaythegameofbeingan individual, lookingforsomethingcallednotbeinganindividual.Onenesswantstoplay thegame.OnenessiscertainlyfascinatedbynotbeingOne. Isntthisalsoaculturalthing,becauseinoursocietyweteachthechildthat itsseparate?Iftherewasasocietywhereachildwasnttaughtthatitisan individual,whatwouldhappen? I dont know. It would be fascinating. So lets say there was a society or a groupofpeoplesomewherewhowouldntteachthat.Well,then there would justbeliberation. Wouldntthatbeveryimpractical? Itwouldbejustthesame,exceptthattherewouldntbeanyonelivingit.There wouldntbeanybodytheretowhomitwouldbehappening. Doyouagreethatawakeningcanbecomparedtolookingatthosespecially preparedpictures,whereyouonlyseelittlelinesanddots,andtheysay:you have to look behind those dots. I tried many times, and then suddenly a beautifulthreedimensionalpictureemerged. Yes.Andthestrangethingis:thisseeingseemstohavesomethingtodowith relaxing,withsofteningtheeyes,andthensuddenlysomethingelseemerges. Now, the problem with that is that the mind will say: Ah, so that is how awakeninghappens.AllIhavetodoisrelax,youknow,andthenyoureback in the wheel, back in the treadmill again, because it is another way of becoming. Itis certainly a very good example of it: seeing something that is therethatyouthinkyoucantsee. Andonceyouveseenit,youwillbeseeingitagain. Thenitsallover,yes. Butthereisnowayofworking towards seeingit. Itsnotpossibleforthedreamseekertoeverawake.Theresnosuchthingas anenlightenedperson.No person canawake.Whenthereisnoperson,then thereisthat which alwaysis. Peopletendtolookforpersonalenlightenment,though.

Yes.Well,themindoftendraftsapictureofwhatenlightenmentwouldbelike. Thisisaverypersonalthing.Weallhaveapictureofwhatwethinkwewould belikeifwewereenlightened.Thathasnorelevancetoawakeningatall.But itsaverytemptingpicture.Inaway,itsevenbetterthanwinningthelottery. Itslike:Wow,nowImasuperstar. Andallproblemswillbeover. Yes,andeverybodywilladoreme.(laughing)!Itsapicturethemind likes. Of course, you often see examples of this in the world.people who play theyreenlightenedorputoutthismessage.Andtheydobecomeglorifiedina way. The world we live in is so interesting, its so sweet and fascinating. Because somebodysays:IamthisorIamthat,andthenthepeopleintheaudience alsowanttobecomethat.Theyseeksomethingspecialthere,theyalsowantto bespecial.Itsawonderfuldrug.Soitgetsbiggerandbiggerandbigger.Itsa mutualagreementtobespecial. Thedisciplemakestheguru,andthegurumakesthedisciple. Yes,absolutely. Itsadream.And ofcourse the mostimportantthingforthe guruistoofferthepeoplesomethingtodo.Thatisthedrug.Ifhecanthinkof somethinghecangivethemtodo,hesgoingtogetanevergrowingaudience. Itsdifferentwhenpeoplestartcoming tosomeone andtheyaskhimtosay something. Yes,ofcourse,inliberationthereisntreallyanybodysayinganything. Thereisntanyonethere. I get a lot of people who never come again,because they dont want tohear Thereisnoone,andtheresnothingthatcanbedone.Thatsnotattractiveto them.Itleavesnohope.Peoplewanttohearthatthereishope,andthatthey can dosomething. But the point is, you see, that in liberation there is no one there to communicatethings,thereisnoagenda,thereisnomotive,theresjustwhats happening. So there is no motivation to capture people, or to make people believethisorthat.Itsjustsomeonestandingthere,respondingandspeaking, withoutanyideaofgoinganywhere.Because,asfarasthespeakerasfaras liberationisconcerned,theaudienceisalreadyliberated.Sobasically,itsnot a teaching, its a sharing of something already known, a remembering. It is alreadytotallyknown,butnotbythemind.Therearepeoplewhothinkthey come to get something, and then they suddenly recognize that its actually aboutlosingsomething,andtheresasortofrecognitionofsomethingalready known,notbythem,butbyOne.OnenessknowsthereisonlyOneness,butit pretendsitdoesnt.Sopeoplecomeandpretendthatthey arentOne. ItsOneness,speakingtoitself.
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Yes,absolutely.Inthatwayitsverylovely.Thereisntanybodytheretryingto doanything.IneverknowwhatImgoingtosay.TonyParsons,thecharacter, isamazedatwhatcomesout. AsIseeit,youcontinuallypointouttopeoplethattheirquestionsarestated from a wrong perspective, that is: from the perspective of being an individual. There is nothing wrong or right, of course. But it is an ignorance. The questionscomeoutoftheidea,theabsoluteidea,thatthereisanindividual. Sometimesyoudontanswerquestionsdirectly.Youjusttrytopointoutthe veryfactoftheirignorance. No one is trying anything. But what in fact is happening is that there is a continualdescriptionorrevealingoftherealitythatallthereisisThis.When there are questions about reincarnation, I say that there is no one to reincarnate.And then I say: So what is happening right now, what are you feeling right now? Oh, I feel hot. Okay, so hot is This. This is whats happening.Thereissomethingthatisawareofthatheat,somethingthatisnt you that is aware of that heat. Its continually bringing people back to the realization that there is no one, and all there is, is aliveness. All there is, is whatseemstobehappening.Itsreallyadissolutionoftheideaofseparation. It makes me think of the way Vipassana meditation works, because thats also focusing onwhateveryoufeel,orthink,orexperience. Theproblemonehaswithformalmeditationisthatonecanbesittinginthe kitchen,havingacupofcoffee,andthenonethinks:Okay,nowImgoingto meditateandbeinThis.Sowhatoneisactuallysayingisthatdrinkingacup ofcoffeecantbeThis,itsgottobeupstairs.Thatsthemindset.Infact,the realityisthateverybodyintheworldismeditating. Youoftenspeakabouttherapyasanintelligentwaytomakelifeeasier. Making the prison more comfortable. Yes, well, obviously people over many hundreds of years have been in fear, or whatever, and theyve turned to religion, basically, to comfort them. You know, religion is the opium of the people.And somehow, thatis beginning to fall apart in thisapparent world. ButIthinkalotofpeopleareturningtotherapytotryandmakethemselves feelmorecomfortableintheirseparation. AsfarasImconcerned,therapyisthemostintelligentthingaround,butonly to make the prison more comfortable. It has no bearing on awakening, becauseitsworkingonanapparentindividualwhosstillseparate.Soyoucan work on anger with someone, and it may be that for a while he could think thathesdealingwiththatanger,butunderneathallofthatangerorjealousy orneurosisorlonging,thereisonethingthatisntdealtwithin therapy,and that is separation. So in therapy youre always trying to plug one hole by pullingsomethingoutofanotherhole.
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You have a beautiful expression for this: its just moving the furniture around. Yes, (laughing). People say to me: Oh, youre saying that meditation and therapyarerubbish.ButImnotsayingthat.Meditationandtherapyarewhat theyare,theyarejustthingsthatarehappening.WhatImreallysayingisthat theresnooneevertohavechosenanything.Theresnoonewhocanchooseto meditateorgototherapy. Yes,ithappensoritdoesnthappen.Still,tosomepeopleitcanbesoothingor helpful. Ohyes.Itssointelligent.Butitsallstillinthedream. Yes, but some people have nightmares for dreams. So if the nightmare changesinamorecomfortabledream. Whynotmakethedreambetter?Andanyway,youcantdoanythingaboutit. Itjusthappens. Still, I find that more and more therapists try to integrate the nondual perspectiveintotheirtherapy.Doyouthinkthatspossible? That depends. What Im finding is that theres a lot of books around called Advaita books, theres a lot of talk about nonduality. Ive been to America recently,andtherearehundredsofdifferentprocessesgoingon,andtherapies andteacherswhoclaimtobenondual.Nondualhasbecomethefashionable word. In America you go out and buy a nondual hamburger nowadays, (laughing)!Ithasabsolutelynoconnectiontononduality.Thesepeoplespeak inanondualwayandsay:thereisonlyOneness,andthentheystartsaying: inthemeantime, youhavetodosomethinglikemeditatinginordertofind.. Itssocontradictory. HowdopeopleinAmericareacttoyourtalks? Oh, some are aghast. Theres frustration, anger, and a sort of laughter and hysteria that happens around this continuous saying that there is no one, there isnothing.Butwhataboutthis,andwhatabout, and whatcan I doabout,youknow.Itsjustwonderfultolistento. Oursocietyissoverymuchintodoing. Certainly,whenyoutellsomepeoplethatthereisnoone,andthatthereisno choice.thatsthelastthingtheywanttohear.Well,inallfairness,itsthelast thinganyonewantstohear.Whatwefearmostisourownabsence.Buttheres nothing to fear. This is all there is. But for most people there is this fear of losingthemselves.Theyareafraidoflosingcontrol. WhattouchedmedeeplythelasttimeIattendedameetingofyours,wasthe silencebetweentheanswersyougaveandthenextquestion.
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In the meetings we talk together, and at some level thats a description of something,itpointstosomethingbeyond expression.Butthemostpowerful thingintheroomistheenergyofboundlessness. Thats why the idea of having a silent retreat is so ridiculous. Its artificial, becausesilencejustnaturallyarises.Eveninspeakingthesewordsnow,thisis onlysilencespeaking.