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SOUNDSTRUE:INSIGHTSATTHEEDGE

StanislavGrof:LearningfromNonOrdinaryStates InterviewedbyTamiSimonTuesday,August24,2010 Audiohttp://www.soundstrue.com/podcast/?p=1977 TamiSimon:Idlovetobegin,Stan,bygivingourlistenersabitofbackgroundand aframeworkforyourworkandyourteaching.Iwonderifyoucanjusttellusa littlebitaboutyourearlywork,andspecificallyhowyoubecamesointerestedin nonordinarystatesofconsciousness. StanleyGrof:MyoriginalinterestinpsychiatrycamefromreadingFreud.Justat thetimewhenIwasactuallycommittingtoacompletelydifferentprofessionI wantedtoworkinanimatedmoviesafriendofminegavemeIntroductory LecturesinPsychoanalysis.Istartedreadingitintheeveningandcouldntstop.I readthroughthenight,andwithinafewdaysIdecided,ThisiswhatIwantto be.Iwanttobeapsychoanalyst.SoIenrolledinthemedicalschoolinstead,and then,asIwasgettingdeeperinvolvedwithFreudiananalysis,Ibecame increasinglydisappointedwithit.Initially,itwasnotthetheory,itwasmorethe practicalinefficacyyouknow,thatittakesyears,andevenafteryears,the resultsdontseemtobebreathtaking.AndsoIwasinastate,kindofacrisis whereIstartedregrettingthatIdchosenpsychiatryandpsychoanalysis,and startedkindofnostalgicallythinkingbacktoanimatedmovies. Justatthattime,wegotasupplyofLSDfromSandoswithalettersayingthatthis wasaveryinterestingnewinvestigationalsubstancewhosepsychoactiveeffects werediscoveredbyDr.Hoffman(Heaccidentallyintoxicatedhimself.)andit describedapilotstudythatDr.StahldidwiththesonofDr.Hoffmansbossin Zurichwithagroupofpsychiatricpatientsandagroupofnormalvolunteers. Theysaidtheyfeltthatthiswouldbesomethinginterestingforpsychiatristsand psychologists,andwouldwewanttodosomeexperimentsandletthemknowif therewasalegitimateuseforit?Theygaveacoupleoftips:Onewasthatthey feltthatmaybethiscouldbeusedasakindofmodelpsychosis,orexperimental psychosis,wherewecouldgiveittonormalpeople,doallkindsoftestsbefore, during,andafter,andgetsomeinsightsintowhatmightbehappeninginpeople whohavespontaneousepisodesofthesenonordinarystates.Thentherewasa secondtip,whichkindofbecamemydestinyorkarma,whateveryouwanttocall it.Theysuggestedthatmaybethiscouldbeusedasakindofunconventional trainingtoolforpsychiatristsorpsychologiststhatthiswouldgiveusachanceto

spendafewhoursintheworldthatseemstobesimilartotheworldwhereour patientslive. Youknow,Iwasexperiencingthisrealdisappointmentwithpsychiatry,andthis lookedlikeanexcitingnewpossibility,soIbecameoneoftheearlyvolunteers.I hadapowerful,powerfultransformingexperiencethatcreatedakindofa lifetimeinterestinnonordinarystates,whereitbecamemypassion,profession, vocation. TS:Canyougiveusanidea:Howmanyjourneysdidyougoonwhereyouwere accompanyingpeopleaspartofyourresearch? SG:Well,Ivedone,overhalfacentury,over4,000sessionswithothers.Iwasalso experimenting,myself,withallofthesubstancesthatwewereusingwithour patientsandclients. TS:AndIknowthisisabigquestion,butcouldyousaythattherewerecertain themes,orthemostimportantinsightsthatyoureceivedfromthese4,000 sessions,plusyourown?Likethetoplevelhighlightsthathaveinformedyour work? SG:Well,IthinkthemajorthingthathappenedwasIwascomingintothis experimentationwithacompletelyatheisticbackground.Youknow,myparents metinasmallCzechtown,andwhentheywantedtogetmarried,therewasa problembecausemyfathersfamilydidnthaveanychurchaffiliation,andmy mothersfamilywasstrictlyCatholic,andthelocalchurchrefusedtomarrythem untiltheygotamajorfinancialcontributionfrommygrandparents,frommy mothersside.Andsomyparentsgotsodisenchantedwithanythingrelatedto religionthattheydidntcommitmeormybrothertoanyreligion.Theysaidthat youshouldbasicallymakeyourchoicewhenyoucomeofage,andso,fromthis kindofatheisticbackground,Iwenttomedicalschoolatthetimewhenwehada Marxistregime,sothiswasnotsomethingthatwascultivatingspiritual awareness.Sothemajorthingthathappenedformewastoopenmetoa mysticalworldview,tospirituality,whichiscertainlysomethingthatIhadnot expected. Andthenthereweremany,many(ofcourse)specificinsights.Thefirstonewas thatthesessionswouldnttakeusbythat,Imeanmyselfandmyclientsjustto thepartofthepsychedescribedinpsychoanalysis,whichisbasicallypostnatal biographyandtheFreudianindividualunconscious.Butsoonerorlater,the sessionsstartedtakingusintoarealmthatInowcallperinatal.Thiswasamajor

discovery,thattherewasapowerfulrecord,apowerfulimprintinthepsyche,of thewholebirthprocess,withalltheemotions,withallthephysicalfeelings,and thatislikeareservoirofdifficultemotionsthatplaysaveryimportantroleinthe developmentofdifferentkindsofemotionalandpsychosomaticdisorders,and thengoingbackthereandrelivingthat,andprocessingthoseemotionsand relievingthoseenergiesisamajor,majortherapeuticmechanism. Ihadtostrugglewiththis,becauseinmymedicaltraining,therewasnowayyou couldrelivebirth.Theideawasthatthecerebralcortexofthenewbornisnot finished,isnotmyelinized(asitiscalled),andthattherecannotbeanymemory, thatthenewbornisunconsciousandtheexperienceisnotrecordedanywhere. Andsothistookmeawhiletoadjusttoandrealizethatsomehowcurrent psychiatryandbrainresearchhaditwrong. ButevenbeforeIgotfamiliarandcomfortablewiththisperinatallevel,itstarted openingintoanewrealmwhichwenowcalltranspersonal,whichmeansthat therewereexperiencesofgoingbackintopreviouscenturiesandothercountries, sometimeswithasenseofpersonalremembering,andthenwewereintherealm ofreincarnation,karma.Peoplewerehavingexperiencesthattheybelievedtobe memoriesfrompreviouslifetimes.Icanfindtheconnectiontothepresent lifetimeandhealing,inthisprocess,ofmanyemotionalandpsychosomatic problems. Thentheotherthingthathappened:Theexperiencesmovedfromhuman consciousnessintotheanimalrealm,andtherewerevery,veryauthentic identificationswithvariousotherlivingorganisms,lifeforms,fromprimatesall thewaydowntounicellularorganisms.Again,thiswasamajor,major(asyoucan imagine)shockingdiscovery.Theexperiencessometimeswentintothebotanical realm!Irememberexperiencingaveryconvincingidentificationwithasequoia tree,forexample,orinoneofmysessions,Ibecameacarnivorousplant, digestingaflywithexperiencesthatIcouldntconjureupinmyeveryday consciousness.ItcertainlywasntcomingupfromsomethingIhadreador experiencedinthemoviesandsoon. Andthenyetanothermajor,majorexperienceorexperientialrealmwasthe Jungianarchetypalunconsciousyouknow,comingintotherealmof mythologicalbeings,deities,demonicpresences,kindofabodesofthebeyond paradises,hells,heavens,andsoonandfinally,experiencesofonenesswiththe divine,orexperiencesofthesuprequasmitmetacosmicvoid,thekindof experiencesthatyouneverheardinpsychologyorpsychiatry,exceptmaybein somepathologicalcontexts,assomethingthatpsychoticpatientsexperience,but

experiencesthatweredescribedindetailinwhatisactuallycalledperennial philosophy,youknow,thedifferentEasternphilosophiesandmysticalsystemsof theworld. Itwouldbedifficulttopindownoneparticularexperience,butcertainlythe transformationfromanatheisttosomebodywhoismorelikeamystic,andthen thisdiscoveryofthevastnessofthepsyche,thosewerethemajorsurprisesfor me. TS:Well,Imean,Stan,listeningtoyou,itssohugewhatyourereporting!Justto helpmeintermsofmyownhistoryandknowledgeofthedevelopmentof psychiatryintheWest:Whenyoustarted,weretheperinatalandtranspersonal dimensionsjustnotconsideredpartofthedialogue? SG:Itcertainlywasnotpartofthedialogueintraditionalacademicpsychiatryand psychology,butthesekindsofideasappearedintheverystormyandkindof complexhistoryofpsychoanalysis.Freudsurroundedhimselfwithverytalented people.Manyofthemdevelopedvariationsofpsychoanalysisthatwentbeyond Freud.Therewas,forexampleOttoRank,whowasouttellingFreud,workedona bookcalledTheTraumaofBirth,gaveittoFreudforhisbirthday,creatingan emotionalshockinFreudthat,accordingtoAgnesJones,thebiographer,ittook Freudfourmonthstorecoverfrom.Sothatwassomethingthatemergedin psychoanalysis,butwasnot,certainly,embracedbythewholepsychology community,onlybyafractionofanalysts.Also,Ranksideaaboutbirthwasalittle differentfromwhatemergedwithpsychedelicresearchortheholotropic breathworkthatwearedoingnow.Then,ofcourse,therewasCarlGustavJung, whocameupwiththeideathatwedonthavejusttheindividualunconscious, butwehaveacollectiveunconsciouswheretheentirehistoryofhumanityis recorded,andalsotheculturalhistory,theculturalinheritance,experiencesof differentcultures,evenculturesthatwehavenotstudiedorthewedonthave anyintellectualknowledgeof. Therewas,ofcourse,anotherrenegade,andthatwasWilhelmReich,who pointedoutthatwhatwearedealingwithinemotionalpsychosomaticdisorders arenotjustmemoriesoftraumaticsituationsofvariouskinds,butthatwecarry very,verypowerfulblockages,whathecalledcharacterarmor,thathesawas kindofjammedsexualenergyduetothefactthatwe,ashumansinmodernity, donthavefreeandfullsexuallives.Soagain,thisissomethingthatemergedin psychedelicwork,theawarenessofhowmanypentupbioenergieswecarryin ourbody.

TS:Nowyoumentionedsomethingveryinterestingtomewhenyouweretalking abouthowtraditionalpsychiatryviewedmemoriesfromthebirthexperience: thatwedonthavethementalcapacity,Iguessyousaid,becauseofcertain myelinthatsformedinourbrain,tohavethesememories,andthatthiscauseda conundrumforyou,howyoucouldunderstandwhatyouwereexperiencing,both inyourselfandthroughthepsychedelicresearch,andthenlaterandwelltalk aboutthisinabitthetherapyyoudeveloped,holotropicbreathworktherapy, wherepeoplearerelivingthesebirthmemories.Howdoyouexplainouraccessto birthmemoriesandnonordinarystates,giventhatscientificperspectiveabout howthebrainforms? ST:Well,youknow,theresnoprobleminthisregard,withperinatalexperiences, becausethereisabrain,thereisahighlydevelopedpartofthenervoussystemin thenewborn,anditsactuallyquitesurprisingandshockingthattraditionally psychiatristsdontseeit,becauseweknowthatyoudontneedacortextohave memories.Thereareorganismswithoutacortex,withoutabrain,thathave memories.Memoryisafunctionoflivingmatter.Anumberofyearsago,Eric KandelgotaNobelPrizeforstudyingmemorymechanismsinaseaslug,called aplysia.Soaseaslughasmemory,butanewborncannotrememberhoursofa potentiallylifethreateningsituation. Thentheotherparadoxhereisthatthewholepsychiatriccommunityagreesthat theexperiencesimmediatelyfollowingbirthwhichisnursing,whichisthe exchangebetweenthenewbornandthemotherisallimportant.Even pediatriciansandobstetricianstalkaboutbonding,theexchangeoflooks betweenthemotherandthechildthatcaninfluencethewholefuture relationship.Andwehavenowextensivefetalresearchshowingthesensitivityof thefetusalreadyinthewomb.Forexample,ifyoureplayingVivalditopregnant mothers,andthenyouplayitagaininthenursery,thechildrenwouldbemore relaxed,theywouldsleepbetter,theywouldgainmoreweight,andsoon.There areotherindicationsofthesensitivityofthefetus. TheonlywayIcanunderstandthisamazing,amazinglogicalgapthatyouseehere isthatitsapsychologicalrepression,thattheexperiencedmemoryisso frighteningthatweuseourintellecttoexplainitaway.Youknow,Thesethings wouldnthavebeenimportantbecausemycortexwasntmyelinized.Theidea thatadisciplinethatissoproudofitslogic,itsrigidlogical,scientificthinking,can comeupwiththatkindofinconsistencybyattributingtheabilityofveryrefined memorytothenursingnewborn,butatthesametimebelievesthatthereisno wayofrecordingsomethingthatcouldbe15,30,50hours(severaldays)ofalife threateningsituation,isjusthardtobelieve.

Nowyougetintomuchmoreproblemswhenyougofurtherbecauseyoucan rememberearlyembryonicdevelopment.Youcancertainlyexperience conceptiononacellularlevelofawareness,andyoucangobeyondandhave ancestralmemoriesandexperiencesfromthecollectiveunconscious,whereit becomesincreasinglydifficulttofindanymaterialsubstrate.Sowehavenowa conceptofmemorywithoutamaterialsubstrate.Someofthethingsthatwould fitherewouldbe,forexample,RupertSheldrakesideaofthemorphogenetic fields.TheotheronewouldbetheconceptofsocalledpsifieldorAkashicfield thatErvinLszldescribed,wherehescientificallyformulatedtheconceptofa subquantumfieldwhereeverythingthathaseverhappenedintheuniverse remainsholographicallyrecorded,andbecomesavailabletoallofusunder certainspecialcircumstances.Soourconsciousnessresearchisnowbeyondthe ideathatmemoryhastohavesomekindofamaterialsubstrate,whetheritsthe brainoreventheDNA. TS:Wellletstalkaboutthatamoment,becauseitseemslikethatsapretty controversialpoint:consciousnesswithoutamaterialsubstrate. SG:Oh,itsdefinitelycontroversialintermsofcurrentacademiccircles,butwe have,forexample,anenormousnumberofobservationsfromthanatology showingthatconsciousnesscanoperateindependentlyofthebrain.Youknow, peoplewhohaveaneardeathexperiencenotjusttheirheartstops,buttheir brainwavesareflat,soitsacardiacdeathandabraindeathwhentheyare beingresuscitated,theconsciousnessoperatesoutsideofthebodywithcomplete sensoryaccesstotheenvironment,notjustintheroomwhereitishappening, butitcantraveltootherpartsofthebuilding,canexperiencesomething hundredsorthousandsofmilesaway,andifthereisanopenmindedresearcher whogoesandchecksthesethings,hefindsoutthatthesethingsarehappening, thattheycanbeconsensuallyvalidated.KenrickandBellerino,forexample,show thatthiscanhappentopeoplewhoarecongenitallyblindwho,fororganic reasons,haveneverseenanythingbeforeintheirlivesiftheyareinanear deathsituation,theycansee,andwhattheyseecanbeconsensuallyvalidated. Theytalkaboutveriticaloutofbodyexperiences. Soyouknowwehavevariousobservationsshowingthatconsciousnessisnota productofthebrain.Consciousnesscanreallyoperateindependently. TS:Thisissuchanimportantpointtoemphasize.Whatdoesthistellyouabout whatyouthink,imagine,supposewillhappenwhenyoudie?

SG:Wecandoalittlemorethanfantasizeaboutit,becausewehavethese reportsofpeoplewhocamequiteclosetodeath.Wedonthavereportsfrom peoplewhoactuallydied,completedtheprocess.(TherearereportsfromTibetan literature,andsoon.)ButIhavehad,inmypsychedelicsessions,repeated experienceswhereIbelievedthatIhadalreadydied,thatIwasintherealm,the postmortemrealm,thebardorealm,andIhaveseenmany,manyotherpeople describethat.Wehadpatientswhoweredyingofcancer,weweredoing psychedelicresearchwiththem,andwehadinstanceswheretheyhadthe experiencesofdeathandrebirth,havingasenseoftranscendingdeath,andthen, ascancercontinued,theyactuallyhadarealneardeathexperience.Oneofmy patients,whoisdescribedinthebookWhentheImpossibleHappens,hisureter wasobstructedbythemetastasis,andtheyoperatedonhim,andhehadcardiac arrest.Whenhecameback,hetoldus,ImgladthatIhadthesesessionswith you,becausetheterritorywasnotnewtome.Hewascomparing,actually,his experiencesfrompsychedelicsessionswiththerealneardeathexperience. Sowehavemanyindicationssuggestingthatwhatsgoingtobehappeningatthe timeofdeathisgoingtobequitesimilartowhatwehaveexperiencedin psychedelicsessions,butofcourse,wellneverknowforsure.Wellgetthefinal answerwhenwellbeactuallydying. TS:Justtomakesureeveryonestrackingwithus:Whenyoutalkabout consciousnesswithoutasubstrate,whatyoumeanbyasubstrateissomekindof materialreceiver? SG:Yeah.Somethingthatsmaterial,likethebrainortheDNA.Itwouldbemore ofsomethinglikeafield.RupertSheldrakeusedtotalkaboutamorphogenetic field,orErvinLszlistalkingabouttheAkashicfieldorthePSIfield,whichwould beasubquantumfieldwhereeverythingthathaseverhappenedwouldbe recorded.Ormaybethefieldofconsciousnesscanretaininformation,thefieldof consciousnessitself.Wedliketomoveawayfromtheideathatconsciousnessis actuallyproducedbythebrain.Wehavemany,manyindicationsthatthatsnot thecase.Whatwehaveisanenormousnumberofobservationsshowingthat therearesystematiccorrelationsbetweentheanatomy,physiology,biochemistry ofthebrainandstatesofconsciousness,butwehaveabsolutelynoproofthatthe braingeneratesconsciousness.Thisis,again,anotherkindoflogicaljumpthathas happenedintheacademicthinking. Youknow,itwouldbetantamounttosayingthatbecausethereisasystematic relationshipbetweenthecomponentsinthetelevisionsets,theirfunctioning,and thequalityofthepictureandthesoundthatyouget,itsaproofthattheprogram

isgeneratedinthebox.This,ofcourse,leavesthepossibilitythatthetelevision setmediatestheprogram,butdoesntgenerateit,inthesamewaythatthebrain mediatesconsciousness,butdoesntreallycreateit. TS:Soisthatyourunderstandingoftherelationshipbetweenconsciousnessand thebrain,thatthebrainisamediator? SG:Well,whatIbelieveisthatwehavealotofevidencethatconsciousnessisnot producedbythebrain.Itseasierformenowtoimagine,thewaytheHindusdo, thatwhatweareexperiencingasthematerialworldisreallyvirtualreality.You know,theytalkaboutmaya,theytalkaboutlila,theytalkaboutthedivineplay.I canimagineconsciousnessgeneratingtheexperienceofthematerialworld, ratherthanbeingabletobelievethatsomethinglikematterwhich,inour understanding,isinert,sortofblind,reactivecangeneratesomethinglike consciousness.Imeanthegapissophenomenalthatitshardtoimagine.And nobodyhasevertriedtoexplainhowpossiblymattercouldcreateconsciousness. Itsthebasicmetaphysicalassumption,whichsortofreflectsthisbeliefthatthe worldismaterial,andthereforeconsciousnesshastobederivative,butthereis thisotherextremethattheHindushave,thatallwearedealingwithisvirtual reality,thatworldscanbecreatedbyorchestrationofexperiences,andthose peoplewhohavehadpsychedelicexperiencesorevenspontaneous experiences,orexperiencesinholotropicbreathworktheyknowthat consciousnesscancreateworlds.Very,verybelievableones.Occasionallyeven morebelievablethanthisone.Thereis,ofcourse,alsothepossibilityofthe parallelism,thatbothconsciousnessandmatterarereal,andthattheyaresortof relatedinaveryinterestingway. Philosophically,ofallthreeofthosearepossibilities:theworldismaterialand mattergeneratesconsciousness,orthenatureoftheuniverseisabsolute consciousnessthathasthecapacityofcreatingworldsbyorchestrating experiences,andthentheparallelexistenceofmatterandconsciousness. TS:Well,itsclearthatyoudontthinkthefirstoptionisthewaythingsare,but betweenthesecondandthethird,areyouclearwhatyourviewis? SG:IthinkIwouldsidewiththeEasternphilosophies.Youknow,ifIamtotakeall oftheexperiencesthatIvehadovertheyears,andeverythingIhaveseenin termsoftheseexperiencesandthingshappeningaroundthem,likeamazing synchronicitiesandsoon,Iwouldcertainlybemoreinclinedtogivepriorityto consciousness.

Youknow,Iread,yearsago,abookthatIsawinthebookstore.ItwasFrancis Crick,calledTheAstonishingHypothesis.FrancisCrickwasthecodiscovererofthe DNAstructure.ItwascalledTheAstonishingHypothesis:ANobelPrizeWinning ScientistExplainsConsciousness.Isaid,ThisisabookIhavetoread.SoIbought thebook,andIstartedreadingit.Itbeganwithastatement,youknow,Allyour joys,allyoursorrows,allyourideas,allyourvisions:Itsnothingelsebuttheplay oftheactivityoftheneuronsinyourbrain,wastheastonishinghypothesis.Then Cricksays,Well,letssimplifyit.Letslookatwhathappenswhenyouobserve something.Thenhesays,Whenyoulookatsomething,lightisreflectedfromit. Itcreateselectricchanges,chemicalchangesinyourretinathatcreatesa neuronalimpulse,moreelectricchanges,morebiochemicalchanges,andthen finally,thisimpulseendsupinthesuboccipitalcortexagain,electricpotentials andbiochemicalchanges...andhegivespagesandpagesofexperiments provingthatthisisthecase,thenheleavesitinthesuboccipitalcortex,aselectric potentialsandbiochemicalchanges,asifthatexplainedtheproblem. Thatsactuallywheretheproblembegins.Whatisitthatcancreate,outofthese biochemicalandelectricchanges,areasonablefacsimileofwhatsoutthere,in colors,andsortofprojectitintothreedimensionalspace?Thatsanextremely profoundphilosophicalproblemthatImmanuelKantpointedto:Howdoweknow thatwhatisthereisreallycorrectlyreflectedinourbrain?Weonlyknowhowthe worldappearstous,butnotwhatthingsreallyare.Theresnowayofgetting beyondthatkindofaproblem. SotheHindushaveawholeotheridea:thatyouseeexactlywhatyoure supposedtosee,butthethingsthatyouseearenotthereinthewayyou perceivedthem.Inthesamewayasinthemoviesyousee?youseeexactly whatyouareexpectedtosee,butthosethingsarenotwhatyouperceivethemas being.Thehorses,thetrees,thepeople...itsjusttheplayofenergythatyou interpretinacertainway. TS:NowStan,asweretalkingtoday,youreinyour80s,andyoumentionedthat itwassomeoftheexperiencesinyourpersonallife,someofthethingsthatwere reallymindbending,mindexpanding,mindmelting,whateverwordyouwantto use,thatconvincedyouoftheprimacyofconsciousness.Imwonderingifyoucan shareoneortwoexamplesofeventsthatreallyshiftedyouyourexperiencewas justundeniable,anditcreatedsomekindofshiftinyou. SG:Again,Idontthinkitwasoneortwoorthreeexperiences.Itsmorethe numberofthosethingsthathappened.Severalofthem,inthebook,again,When theImpossibleHappens,forexample,inamotelneartheAyersRock,uluru,you

know,thecosmicmountainoftheaboriginesinthemiddleoftheAustralian desert,andnotreallyknowingtheaboriginalmythology,thatexperiencetookme intothisrealmofwhattheycalldreaming,encounteringthemythicfiguresof theaboriginalmythology,andgoingthroughaprocessofbeingbornbytheGreat MotherKangaroo,andsoon.Then,thenextday,weboughtalittlebookletinthe motel,andtookacaranddrovearoundthemountain,andtherewere descriptionsofmanyofthethingsthatIhadexperiencedthenightbefore.My innerexperienceswerevalidatedbythisguidebookwewerereading.Thatwas justoneofmany,manyexperiences,someamazingsynchronicitieshappening aroundthesestates. Thephenomenonofsynchronicityissomethingthatwasamajorturningpointin CarlGustavJungswork,also,becauseheinitiallysawthearchetypesasbeing sortofhardwiredinthebrain,andwhenhediscoveredsynchronicity,thefact thatwhatappearstobethematerial,orwhatwecallobjectivereality,canenter intothiskindofaplayfulinteractionwithourpsyche.Wecanhaveadreamora vision,andthenthematerialrealitypresentsitin3D.Itsquite,quiteremarkable. Ihave,inthebook,thisstorythatJosephCampbelltells:Whenhewaswritingthe firstvolumeofwhatwassupposedtobeasixvolumeencyclopediaofmythology, hewaslivingatthetimeonthefourteenthfloorofahighrisebuildingoflower Manhattan,andinhisstudy,thereweretwosetsofwindows:oneoverlooking SixthAvenue(notveryinteresting),andtheotheroverlookingtheHudsonRiver(a verybeautifulview).Thesetwowindowswerealwaysopen,andtheothertwo windowswereopenedveryrarelyforcleaning.HewasworkingontheKalahari bushmenmythologywheretheheroicfigureistheprayingmantis,sohewas surroundedbythesepicturesandthesearticlesandtheLaurensvanderPost biography,wherehetalksabouthisbushmannannyinteractingwiththepraying mantis,andsuddenlyhehadthisirresistibleimpulsetogetupandopenoneof thesewindowsthathehadneverregularlyopened.Helookedoutand automaticallyturnedhisheadtotheside,andthere,onthefourteenthfloorof thishighrisebuilding,wasabigspecimenofprayingmantis.Itclimbedupand turnedhis/herheadtowardshimandgavehimalook,thenjustcontinuedto climbupthebuilding. Yousee?Thosekindsofthingsarequite,quiteremarkable.Theprobabilitythat somethinglikethishappensinchanceisreally...ortheimprobabilityisreally astronomical.Besidestheexperiencesthataremorelikeinthecategoryofthe uluruexperience,Ihadalsolotsofthesesynchronisticconnectionswithmy experiences.

TS:IthinkthatlotsofpeopleandIimaginelotsofpeoplelisteninghavehad experiencesofsynchronicitythatarejustremarkable,andasyousay,just completelyimplausible,butyet,Wow!Thishappened!Thequestion,then,is: Howdoweinterprettheseandmakemeaningfulsenseofwhatsactually happeninginourlivesfromtheseexperiencesofsynchronicity?Canyouhelpus there?Whatdoessynchronicitypointto,inyourview? SG:Well,firstofall,theypointtothefactthattheuniverseissomething completelydifferentfromwhatisdescribedinmonastic,materialisticscience.It bringsthiskindofideaoftheuniversethatisorganic,thatisinterconnected,that itsalive,thatitspermeatedbysuperiorintelligence,thateventsintheuniverse areorchestratedinanintelligentway.Theydontjusthappen.Itsaradical changeinourunderstandingofthenatureofreality,fromthetypicalWestern viewthatwehaveinindustrialsocieties,whereitsasimplymaterialworldin whichonlyhumansarereallyfullyconscious,toauniversethatscreatedby superiorintelligenceandthathasakindofamasterblueprintbehindit. RickTarnasbroughtawholeotherperspectiveonthisby30yearsofstudying historyandshowingthecorrelationsbetweeneventsintheworldandplanetary transits.Itshowsanimageoftheuniverseinwhichwhatishappeninghere,on themateriallevel,isformedandinformedbyhappeningsonthearchetypallevel, whichisnormallyinvisible.Theinteractiononthearchetypallevelis systematicallycorrelatedwiththeplanetarymovementsandtheangular relationshipsthattheplanetsaremaking,soyoucaninfer,fromthesituationin theworldofthestars,whatishappeninginthearchetypalworld,andwhatkind ofenergiesyouwouldexpecthere.SoRickwrotethisbookcalledCosmosand Psyche.Ifyoureadthat,itsquite,quiteamazing.Thereyoudonthavejustasort ofindividual,isolatedsynchronicities,butshowingasynchronisticinterconnection ofallofreality,thatyoucantakepartofit,whichisthemovementsofthe planets,andyoucaninferwhatwouldbehappeningintheotherrealms.Its importanttosaythat,inthiskindofunderstanding,thestarsdontcause anything.Theyjustindicatewhatishappeninginthewayinwhichourclockdoes notcreatetime,butitsjustshowingwhattimeitis. TS:Nowwestartedourconversation,Stan,talkingaboutyourresearchwith peopleundergoingLSDexperiences,andyouvementionedthatyouve developedamethod,holotropicbreathwork,whichisonethatallowspeopleto accesstheseexpandedstatesofconsciousnesswithoutdrugsorLSDoringesting anything.Justtotalkalittlebitaboutthat:Whatsyourunderstandingofwhat LSDdoestoourcapacitytohaveexperience?Andthenisthatreallysomething thatcanbemimickedinanondrugapproach?

SG:Well,youknow,allthoseyearsworkingwithLSD,Iknewthatwhatwewere experiencingwerenotreallyLSDexperiences,thatLSDwaslikeapowerful catalystthatmakesavailablethecontentsfromreallydeeplevelsofthepsyche thatarenormallynotavailabletoexploration.Isawitassortoflikeatelescopeor amicroscope:Youknowthemicroscopedoesntcreatethemicroworld.Itjust makesitavailableforobservation.Thetelescopedoesntcreatenewgalaxies.We presumetheyarethere,andwewouldntseethemwithoutthetelescope.Yet therewasalwaysthisfeeling:Therewasthisincrediblypowerfulsubstance. Maybethatsomehowparticipatesinit. AndsoitwasamazingwhenChristinaandIwereinEssalen,attheEssalen InstituteinBigSur,wherewedidnothavepermissiontousepsychedelics,and wedevelopedthismethodofholotropicbreathworkwhereyoujustusefaster breathing,powerfulevocativemusic,andacertainkindofbodywork,thatwe sawessentiallythesamespectrumofexperiencesthatweusedtoseein psychedelicsessions:Peoplewererelivingthingsfrominfancy,childhood,reliving birth,goingtoprenatalstates,identifyingwithanimals,plants,goingintothe realmofarchetypalbeings,havingpastlifeexperiences,havingexperiencesof onenesswithGod,oronenessofnature,oronenesswiththeuniverse,andsoon. Andthen,whenwesawthattheseexperiencescanbeusefulandhealingand transformative,whetherinuseofpsychedelicsorthebreathwork,westarted applyingthesamestrategytoexperiencesthatpeoplehadspontaneously,and realizedthattherewasasignificantsubgroupofstateswhicharecurrently diagnosedaspsychoticwhichmeansmanifestationsofmentaldiseasethatare actuallycrisesofspiritualopening,wherethepsycheopensonadeeplevelina spontaneousway,forunknownreasons.Ifwedonotsuppressitthewayits routinelydone,butweencouragepeopletogointotheexperienceandwework them,itturnsouttobeequallytransformativeandhealingandevenevolutionary tothoseexperiencesthatareinducedbybreathworkorpsychedelicsubstances. Youcanusethesameextendedcartographyforallthosethreesituations. Ithinkitsimportanttosaythatwearenotstudyingpsychedelicsubstances,or somethingfastbreathinginduces.Wearestudyingthepsyche,perse,always,the psychethatsinfinitelylargerthantheacademicpsychologyandpsychiatrywould describeit. TS:Imcurious,becausethisissomethingIveneverstudiedorunderstood,but whatdoesapsychedelicsubstancedothatopensustowhatsnaturallythere? Andthenhowisthatpossiblymimickedbybreathworkandmusic?

SG:Therearetheories.Theresnounanimity.Theresnoagreement,exactly, aboutthebiochemicalmechanismthatishappening,butwhatyoucansay,ina verygeneralsense,isthatitchangestherelationshipbetweenconsciousnessand theunconscious.Normally,wecarrymaterialsinourunconscious,ondifferent levels,whichhaveaverystrongemotionalcharge,andtheyhaveatendencyto emergeintoconsciousness.Thenthereisasystem,whichwecallthe psychologicaldefenses,thatskindofholdingitdown.Oneoftheimportant discoveriesofFreudwasaboutthisdynamicbetweentheunconsciouspsycheand theconsciouspsyche.Hedescribedhowtheunconsciousbreaksthrough,notjust insymptomsofpsychoneurosis,butforexampleinslipsofthetongue,orin jokes,andsoon,andthenalsointheformofdreams,whenthepsychological defensesgodownthecensor,asFreudcallsit,goesdownthenthe unconsciousismoreavailable.Sopsychedelicsandthebreathingdosomething similar,onlyinamuchmorepowerfulwaythananordinarydreamwoulddo, unlesstherearesomereallypowerful,nightmaretypeofdreams. Wecarrythesecontentsinourpsychethathavestrongemotionalchargesome ofthemverypainful,fromtraumaticexperiences,someofthemthatarevery joyful.Forexample,aroundbirth,youfindaprenatalexperiencethat,ifitwasa goodwomb,wouldbeaveryecstaticexperience.Thepostnatalexperience, again,iftherewasgoodmotheringavailable,wouldbeveryecstatic,butthe actualpassagethroughthebirthcanalwouldbeverypainful.Ifthesememories arestronglyemotionallycharged,ifyouchangetherelationshipbetween consciousnessandtheunconscious,thenthisunconsciousmaterialwouldsurface andbecomeavailableforprocessing. TS:Itseemsthatoneoftherisksatleastthiswouldbemyviewina psychedelicapproachisthatsomeonecouldbeoverwhelmedbywhattheir defenseshavebeenkeepingatbay.Doyoufindthatwithholotropicbreathwork, ordoesitseemthat,inholotropicbreathwork,thepersonisalittlebitmorein chargeofhowmuchmaterialfromtheirunconsciousisreleased?Andmaybeyou donteventhinkthatthisriskofoverwhelmfrompsychedelicsisarisk.Im curious. SG:Youknow,muchdependsnotjustthemethodthatyoureusing,butonwhat wecallsetandsetting.Forexample,theratiobetweenriskandbenefitin psychedelicsessionsiscriticallydeterminedbywhodoesit,forwhatpurposes,in whatkindofcircumstancesphysicalandhumancircumstances.Itmakesabig differencewhatthesetandthesettingis,andyouhaveanextremelybroadrange thereinwhichpsychedelicshavebeenused,fromthetherapeuticsituations wheretheyhavebeenusedforartisticpurposesorforscientificinsight,allthe

waytoattemptstouseitasachemicalweaponorasamethodofdiscrediting foreigndiplomatsormilitaryleaders.Evenunderthebestofcircumstances,itwill notbeabsolutelysafe.Asignificantfactor,also,isthepersonalityoftheperson whotakesit.Somepeoplearesoclosetobreakdownthatitcouldhappen tomorroworaweekfromnowspontaneously.Thepsychedelicscanbejustthe laststraw,andifitsunderverybadcircumstances,thenitcouldreallyleadtoa breakdown.Theworstthingisif,inthesituationnow,peoplegettranquilizersin themiddleofabadtrip.Thatsortoffreezesitinthebadplace,andthenthe persongetsmaintenancedosagestomakesurethatthegestaltwillnever completeitself.Thoseareallfactorsthatcontributetothefactthatpeoplecanbe damagedbypsychedelics. Now,inthebreathwork,youstartinasafesituation.Everybodyhasapartner.We workindiets,andthenwehavetrainedfacilitatorsforabouteightor10people, usuallymyselfandseniorstaffmembersarethereforthewholegroup.People areaskedtodothewholethingwiththeireyesclosed,whichalreadymakesit safer,becauseyourealreadyfullyawareofwhatiscomingup,andyouhavethe bestopportunitytoworkwithit.Ifpeopletakeitwalkingaroundorinarave,you know,inanopensituationwheretheydontreallypayanyattention,their psychologicaldefensesgodown,buttheydontpayattentiontothematerial thatscomingupthosearesituationsthatarevery,veryconducivetobad results.Butinthebreathwork,westartandendinacompletelyintrojectedkind ofsituationwherepeoplehavetheireyesclosedandevenhaveeyeshades, wherethereisaverycomplexhumansupportsystem.Ifsomethinggetsbad results,wehaveacertainkindofbodyworkandemotionalworkthatcanhelpthe integration. TS:Iknowyouvenowjustpublishedanewbookonholotropicbreathworkwith SUNYPress,HolotropicBreathwork:ANewApproachtoSelfExplorationand Therapy.Imcuriouswhatyourvisionisforholotropicbreathworkintheworld overthenextdecadeortwo.Whatwouldyoulovetoseehappen? SG:Well,wefeelthatitsaverypowerfulwayofselfexplorationandtherapythat hasamuchbetterchancetoinfluence,somehow,whatshappeningintheculture thanverbaltherapy,whichisconductedonaonetoonebasis.Thereisan additionalelementinthebreathwork:Whenpeoplefunctionaswhatwecall sitterstheyalternateintheserolesmanyofthemgetsointerestedinthis thattheyactuallygetintothetraining.Theresalmostlikeachainreactionthere, sowefeellikeitcouldreallyinfluencequiteafewpeopleifthatmethodbecomes popular.

Themostexcitingthingthatwehaveseenisthat,besidestheemotionaland psychosomatichealingthathappens,peoplewhodothissystematicallyand responsiblyactuallyexperienceaprofoundtransformationoftheirworldview.For example,theirlevelofaggressionisloweredbecausetheyworkthroughalotof theiraggressioninthematerialthatisemerging.Theydevelopasenseof compassion,asenseofbelonging.Youdonthavetoteachpeopleecologywhen theyhavetranspersonalexperiencesofonenesswithnatureandwithother speciesandwithotherpeople.Theyrealizethatsenseofunderlyingunityin natureandtheyapproachtheecologicalproblemsinacompletelydifferentway. Theyrealizethatweareallinterconnectedwithnature,andthatwecannot damagenaturewithoutsimultaneouslydamagingourselves.Theyalsostart developingadeeptoleranceintermsofgender,race,culture,ideology,religious differences.Theystartseeingthesedifferencesmoreasinteresting,asindications oftheinfinitecreativityofthecosmiccreativeprinciple,ratherthansomething thatyouwouldliketoeliminate.Theydevelopspiritualitywhichisnon denominational,thattranscendstheadherencetoaparticularorganizedreligion whichtendstounitepeoplewhoarerelatingtothesamekindofimagesofthe divineorconceptofthedivine,butatthesametimedividetheworld,becauseit setsthatgroupagainstothergroups:WeareChristians;youarepagans,We areMuslims;youareChristians,WeareHindus;youareSikhs,andsoon, differencesthatareenoughtoendinbloodshed.Evensmalldifferenceswithin thesamefaith,liketheProtestantsandtheCatholics,ortheShiitesandtheSunis, thedifferencesareenoughforkillingtheothergroup.Thisisnotthekindof religionthatweneedintheworld.Butpeoplewhodosomesystematicinner workwithwhatIcallholotropicstatesthendevelopaspiritualitythatsuniversal, thatsallencompassing.ThatIfindvery,veryhopeful. Icanseeafuturereligionwhereyouwouldofferpeople,firstofall,youwould valuespiritualityasanimportantdimensioninhumanlife,andimportantpartof humanexistence.Youwouldgivepeoplesomemeansthroughwhichtheycould havepersonalexperiences.Youcouldprovidesupportforthem,butyouwould haveabsolutelynoinvestmentwhethertheirexperienceswouldbeusing Buddhistimagery,orHinduimagery,oriftheywouldgointhedirectionof ancientEgyptorAustralianaborigines.Youwouldhonoritasjustdifferent manifestationsofonesource,whichtranscendsthemall.Ithinkthatkindof spiritualitymightbetheonlywayoutofthiscrisisinwhichwearenow,where theworldissoprofoundly,sopainfullydividedinmanydifferentways. TS:Nowthisterm,Irealizewedidntdefineit:holotropic.Thisisnotexactlythe sameasnonordinarystatesofconsciousness.Youcoinedthetermholotropic?

SG:Yes,Idid.Ibecameinterestedinasignificantsubgroupofnonordinary stateswhicharehealing,whicharetransformative,evenevolutionary,andwhich havewhatwecancallheuristicpotential,whichiswecanlearnnewthingsabout consciousness,aboutpsyche,andeventhenatureofreality.Thosearethe experiencesthat,forexample,shamansexperienceduringtheirinitiatorycrisis;or thattheyinduceintheirclients;orexperiencesthattheinitiateshaveintherites ofpassageofdifferentnativecultures;ortheexperiencesthattheinitiateshadin theancientdeathrebirthmysteries;theexperiencesoftheBuddhist,theHindu, theChristianmystics,theTaoist,theKabbalist,andsoon.Ibecamesoastounded thatpsychiatrydoesnothaveanameforthisimportantsubcategory.Wehave justthatoneterm,alteredstates,whichdescribeseverythingfromdelirium tremensorhallucinationsduringtyphoidfevertoatruemysticalexperience.We donthaveadistinctionofaspiritual,mysticexperienceandapsychotic experience.Soeverynonordinarystatewouldbeseenaspathologicalandwould becalledaltered.Idontlikethattermforthisimportantsubgroup.Eventhat term,nonordinary,seemstoobroad,becauseitwouldincludemanystateswhich aredifferentfromordinaryconsciousness,butdonthavethosekindsofpositive qualitiesthatIhavedescribed. SoIstartedtocallthemholotropic.Holosmeanswhole,andtropainmeans movingtowardorinthedirectionofsomething.Likeinthetermheliotropism, theplanthastheabilitytoalwaysfollowthesunororientitselftowardthesun. Soitmeansmovingtowardwholeness,whichofcoursesuggestssomething thatwouldsurprisetheaveragepersonintheindustrialsociety,whichsuggests thatwesomehowarenotwholeinthewayweexperienceourselvesinour everydaylife.Toexplainthat,IusuallyrefertothekindofaHindushorthand.In theHindureligion,theywouldtellyouyouarenotnamarupa,youarenotname andform,youarenotthebodyego.Youcarrywithinyourselfakindofadivine coreordivinespark,andtheygiveyoumethodsinwhichyoucangetempirical, experientialvalidationofthat.Youcanactuallyexperienceidentificationwiththat core.Theycallitatman,andifyouexperienceit,yourealizethatthatenergyand thatstateofconsciousnessisidenticalwiththatcore,withtheenergyorthestate ofconsciousnessofthecreativeprincipleitself,brahma. Theseholotropicstatestakeusfromourordinaryidentity,thebodyego,allthe waytothisexperiencewiththecosmicsource,sometimesinsmallsteps, sometimesinmajorjumps,majorbreaks.Sothatsthemeaningofthatterm, holotropic.Wecankindofreclaimourcosmicstatus,ifyouwant. TS:Well,Ifeellike,inthisconversation,weveexploredafirstlayerof,asyou mentioned,fourorfivedecadesofyourwork,whichhasreallymadesucha

contributiontoourcollectiveunderstanding.ThefinalquestionIhaveforyou, Stan,is:Hereyouvemadesuchatremendouscontribution,helpingbring attentiontotranspersonallevelsofunderstanding,theperinataldimensionofour experience.Doyoufeelasenseoffulfillment? SG:IhaveasensethatIhavehadaveryinterestinglife,andtheexperiences themselveswerekindofselfvalidating.ObviouslyIwouldlovetohavemore time,butIalsohavethissensethatmaybetherewillbemoretime,youknow,if thatconceptofreincarnationturnsouttobetrue.Idonthaveanyregrets. Whetherwhatwehavediscoveredwillbeacceptedbytheculture,whetherits goingtobeactuallyuseful,thatsnotuptome.Thatsonthecircumstancesin otherpeople,too,todecide.Obviously,ifIcoulddoitagain,therearethingsthat Iwoulddodifferently,butIthinkthateverythingconsideredwasdonewithin whatwasmycapacitiesatthetime. TS:Itseemstome,Stan,thatyoureapioneer,anditssimplyamatteroftime beforetheculturemeetsyou.Thatwouldbemyview. Well,Stan,thankyousomuchforthisconversation. SG:Thankyou.Itsbeenagreatpleasure,asalways,totalktoyou.Thankyouso muchforhavingme. TS:And,asImentionedtoourlisteners,Ireallybelievethatwevebarely skimmedthesurface.StanGrofistheauthorofanewbookonHolotropic Breathwork:ANewApproachtoSelfExplorationandTherapy,aswellasabook fromSoundsTruecalledWhentheImpossibleHappens:AdventuresinNon OrdinaryRealities,inwhichStantellsmanystoriesfromhispersonallife,andthen alsoaverydeepandrichsixCDseriesonTheTranspersonalVision,whichcovers alotofthetheorythatwetouchedupontodayonthehealingpotentialofnon ordinarystatesofconsciousness.Soundstrue.com.Manyvoices,onejourney. close

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