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Basic Influencing Skills

Videotape 3rd Edition


Videotape Trancrtpts and Leader Guide Allen E. Ivey Norma Block Gluckstem Mary Bradford Ivey William L. H. Roberts Featurtng Kathryn Bohn

J 997

Microtraining Associates

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Basic Influencing Skllls Videotape Transcripts

Overview and Comments Transcripts for the Videotapes to Basic Influencing 6 minutes Skills harrassment)

Overview and Comments

The third edition of BClSic In.Jluenctng Skills features some begtnnlng pnnctples of narrative theory along with our traditional emphasis on sk1lls. We have found that bringing concepts of the "story" Into training helps broader student perspectives. We also find that drawing out stories is a more positive approach than sole focus on problems. We have tried to stress even more the Importance of positive assets and strengths In this tape series. The positive asset search goes back to 1974. but we have constantly been impressed by its Importance and power . .A:l we say In the tapes, we build on strengths. not on our problems. We are pleased to note that the new narrative therapists have picked up this theme and carried it further. In some cases we have found that a detailed exploration of positive assets and resources is enough for the client to feel that he or she has a beginning solution. Basic Instructions
Basic Influencing

1. Introduction Approximately

2. Basic Listening Sequence Approximately 14 minutes


3. Focusing the Narrative: Helping the Client See Multiple . Perspectives (topic---cartng for our elders) Approximately 15 minutes

Supportlng While Challenging (Topics-confrontatlon vignettes, interview on divorce issues. and the Confrontation Impact Scale) ApproximatelyI? minutes 5. Directives (Topic-procrastination) Approximately 19 minutes 6. Feedback/ self-disclosure (Topic-maintaining balance In a complex world, Includes discussion of race and spirituality In the tntervtewl Approximately .16 minutes 7. Interpretation/reframe (Topic-issues relation to family) Approximately 18 minutes of a young person In

4. Confrontation:

for using the tapes In a workshop or classroom are found in the text Skills. Chapter 9. Teaching Helping Skills to Others. Information Is also In the Leader Guide of Intentional Interviewing and Counseling: Facilitating Development in a Multfcultural SoCiety and Essenttal Interviewing.

The microskills model goes back many years now. but we sUll find that the basic teaching plan works very effectively. However. adapt the model to fit your situation as it is Important to work the model Into a framework which is comfortable to you. The or:lglnal model. backed up by over 300 data-based empirical studies and extensive clinical practice. is as follows: 1. Tell your participants about the skill or have them tell you what they already know and generate a conversation on the meaning and value of the skill in question. 2. View the video example. 3. Read the basic information about the skills and its variations In the text. particularly the pages on the specific microskills strategy (e.g. page 17 on the basic listening sequence). Again. generate a conversation with your trainees about the skill 4. Practice the skill in small groups, ideally with videotape feedback and using the feedback sheets in the text. Eventually. you may want to use tapes developed by you and your students as supplements to the materials presented here. 5. Participants need to practice the skllls outside of the workshop are to generalize and be maintained. or class if they

8. 5-Stage Vocational Interview (Topics-"shall I become a counselor" and "what about my relationship?") Approximately 22 minutes 9. 5-Stage Assertiveness Interview(Topic-learn1ng against sexual harrassment) Approximately 19 minutes how to act

10. Teaching Microskills to Clients (Topics-demonstration how to teach skills In the Interview, discussion of teaching treatment) Approximately 11 minutes

of as

We find it especially helpful to have students present us with transcripts of their homework. And. It is even better if you can obtain video or audiotapes of their sessions. We wish you the best of luck and welcome your feedback and suggestions.

We have numbered the pages separately for each transcript. You may wish to duplicate the transcript and share copies with your students or workshop participants for further analysis and discussion.

Tape 1 Introductioo.

1TI1..E: Introduction to Baslc Influencing Skills Allen E. Ivey Allen: Welcome I Counseling and psychotherapy are about stories. Clients come to us with stories about a family member expertencmg cancer, what happened to them as a result of an automobUe accident. Clients come to us with stories about vocaUonal indecision. wondering what to do. Our first task. as helpers is to Itsten to their stories and understand how they came to come about with their particular version or narrative of their life, Now. after we hear the story. carefully. empathlcally, what do we do next? Uh, these tapes suggest. that what--the first thing to do is to find a s1renzth a positive asset a resource In that client I think too often we focus only on thlnll's that are wrong with cUrnts In these tapes we want to balance negative stOIy-telllng With positive stories. And that serves as a fOUndation for change Summ..E: BuUd on cllent strengths

MlcrOtraln1ng has over three hundred data base studies which say that the system works and Is useful The crucial Issue 15behavioral transfer. So after we've presented sUlil'le sk:!!l we need to work On practicing the behaVior. SUBTrTI.E: Behavioral transfer vital

ldeallv you're going to yldeotape YOYrselfand see yourself In ytcleotape. or at least audiotape. Make a transcript at times and Jook at yourself SUB1TILE: Look at yourself And after you've done this Practice, think about generalization to your own interviewing work. Unless you take these sk.Uls actively Into the world at large, not much ISgoing to happen. The flnal tape. which Norma Gluckstern and I are going to do. is on teaching skills. of the thlnlls that can be done as an additional stratee:y In belplng is to tead;, ~ certain of these skills And we'll briefly at the conclusion of this series, sb~ can Integrate m1crosldUs as an adlunct. a supplementary part of your training. SlJBTI1l.E: Teach cllents skills as well as learning them yourself. So we've got lots to do. Thanks for coming. I look forward to working with you. Title: End Segment 1 Introduction


So In the Orst part of these tapes, we'll be focusing on 1tsten1ng to the client's story and positive strengths. As we move along In the Influencing skills series. we're going to start focusing on re-storymg, telling the story from dilIerent perspectives, seeing situations In new ways. And then we're moving toward what we call the Influencing skills in this process of re-storymg. And finally, after you've done a new story. I think It's Important to work with a client toward behavioral action. So moving and doing something with your story Is a vital part of thIS whole process. And In the final tape, for example, we'll see how to use assertiveness tra1nJng to work on action as we change a client's. story. So to Sum up this first part. the model's relatlyely straightforward: hear the client's stOry' build on PQsittve strenfltlls the poSitive asset search' then work towards re-stoMnIl' chanll'lnll' the nature of the narrative with the cllent--not on the client and finally moytng toward appropriate behavioral actlop, 1TI1.E (EUMINATE ALLEN FROM SCREEN AND SHOW DURING mE WORDS)
1. Story 2. Positive Asset 3. Restory

4. AcUon
Then return Allen to the screen for the next paragraph. Now all of these are done In a multicultural context and we hope we can do a little bit on these tapes to consider ISSues of gender, ah, aJIecUonal or sexual orientation, race/ethrucity, and other factors which I think are Important In the counselJng process. We're going to do all of this via a process called mlcrotraln1ng, using mtcroskills. We break the Interview down into discrete units. and when you practice, we're going to ask you to focus specifically on one single dimension of helping. Now I know that's going to be a bit awkward at first. but we find as you get Into specifics, gradually these specifics start Internaltzlng and end up helping you listen and work With a client's stortes more effectively.

Tape 2: BasIc Ustenlng Sequence TlTIE: The Basic LIstening Sequence Allen: As our first video. we're going to demonstrate the basic listening sequence. If we're going to hear the client's story, we need to use the listening skills of open questions. closed questions if necessary. encourages. paraphrases. reflection of feeling, and summary, We really need to hear that story, both the facts. the feelings, and how the story is organized. In addition to listening to the story. we also think It's lmportant to move towards re-storytng, and that Is finding some positive strengths and positive assets in the client. We're going to take a difflcult, troublesome topic In this case, and that Is the case of sexual harassment. And for years. women were not allowed to tell their stories. They were to keep their mouths shut. in effect. and live with it. I mean. we now know it's important to hear the stories. find the strengths that women have to offer--Internal strengths--brtng strengths from other people. and then we can=once we've heard their story and their strengths. we can start moving to some specific solutions. In this tape. we're not going to move to solutions. We're simply going to draw off the stories and look for some of those strengths. TITLE: The BLS: Sexual Harrassment Allen Ivey with Kathryn Bohn Allen: Michael. So, Kathryn, here we are, our third session. We've been talking about you and How are th~s going with him?


I understand

YQufelt Idnda smail. Demeaned by this, That's not great.

SUBTITLE: Reflection of feeling Kathryn: No, 1--1 don't think it is. And l'm--I don't know. I--I'm not sure how tc--what to do next. Allen: Hrom, So one of the thtrnls YQu'd like to talk about Is maybe dQin2 SQmethln2 about it Uh So--so far--so far I've kind of 22t the general thing, byt we might want to lIet just a few more details I hear that this guy came in uh talked about yoyr--your Ielis I alsQ hear that you felt small and. ub the whole idea of treatiP2 women like obj eets can make them feel small And then uh I felt affronted--I kind Qfinternreted maybe at the begiIU11ng--anger there. perhaps. SUB1TILE: Summary of Kathryn's story
1--1 mean. I feell1ke I

Kathryn: Perhaps 'cause I haven't, maybe. done something. should do something, But what?

Allen: So you kind of feel a need maybe to dQ somethin(i. And I think that's lmDQrtant SUBTITLE: Paraphrase 1TrLE: In the followtng exchange. Allen talks upfront about male/female difference in the helping relationship. Before we go any farther. Just to make sure that. uh, we're okay. 'cause here you are talking about sexual harassment With a=wtth a man. And I--make--make sure that you're okay. 'Cause sometimes, you know. well, you know men! Kathryn: (small laugh)

Kathryn: Well, things are going well. I--thanks for asking. Um.vBut actually I want to kind of move away from that=that and-sand talk. to you about something else that happened, urn. to me Ute other day. Allen: eQuId you tell me some mQre? Ten me what's 20lng Qn there? Open question Kathryn: Urn, well. someone paid me a compliment at work and I'm not quite sure how to maybe react to that. Allen: They paid YQu a cQIDpllment? SUBTITLE: Encourage Kathryn: Yeah-va-sa man. My boss. Urn. My Immediate supervisor. told me I had great looking legs! Allen: Ah .. , And how did that make YQU feel? SUBTITLE: Open question Kathryn: Well, urn, I think it would have been okay if it just, maybe left it at that. Or, I mean, I felt a little bit. you know, uh, uh, you know, affronted with it. like he's never really talked to me before and all of a sudden he's complimenting me on my. you know, my nicely sculpted legs-sycu know, to paraphrase him. Sorta going on about it. Allen: 15athtyn SQ really kind or-kind of felt affronted. Small You felt kind of-Urn. Paid--uh--

Allen: Sometimes, regardless of we work on the issues between you and Michael (and I thlnk that=of course. part of the thtngl. I think I helped you to see Michael's frame of reference. And I think I've been able to bear yours as well. But, I want you to feel able to express your feelings. So if I'm not totally on target, come back at me and I'll do the best I can. How do you feel about continuing with this with me? Kathryn: Allen: Kathryn: I feel pretty good. Okay. Yeah. I do. SUBTITLE: Stop tape. Discussing gender or cultural difference between counselor and client is important. At issue, however. Is the matter of bow it Is done and the tlmlng. What are your opinions of this example? Allen: So I hear that you'd like to do something. Uh. but uh SQcould vau tell me where dQes this 211ystand in relationship tQ YQu? Is be--he--is he your bQss? SUBTITLE: Open and closed questions Kathryn: Allen: He's my boss. Um. He's YQurbQss, And he tells YQU what tQ dQ, Is that Ti2ht?

SUB1lTLE: Paraphrase

with check-out

SUBTITLE: Paraphrase

with check-out

Kathryn: Well. yeah. 1mean. we work as a team and I=um. I'm with a bunch of other people. but I'm working most directly with him and I--Ijust--l'm not sure where to go with it. 1mean. should I--should 1wear pants to work? Or. you mow. what--what-should 1 ever. you mow. dare wear a skirt again? 1 mean, is It--Is the conversation gonna focus on me again? Urn. And--and he made a reference to his girlfriend saying. "Oh, I wish she had legs like that." And then I think. ''What a ptg-headedjerk he Is!" You know? I mean. you should just love someone for who they are and not what they look like. and then 1--1 don't mow. Ijust--(sigh)--I--I don't know, Allen: So It was a piece of the puzzle I really hear you saying loud and clear. that this fiuy is really com1ng across pretty stronfi and heavy on you. I ~et the feel!nfi you're yeinidemeaned You feel angry Uh Uh. And you want to do something. SUBTITLE: Bnefsununmy But before we get Into what you're doing. uh, I'd klnda like to know a little bit about. uh, how are you reacting now when he brlnfis up this Issue with you? What are younwhat are yay doing? I kinda fiet a picture ofwhat he's dOing but what are vou doing In relationship to him? SUB1lTLE: Open question Concreteness Kathryn: I thlnk--I mean. I'm--I'm trying to keep a distance. I think. I feel like IfI--IfI approach him or--or get close to him In a situation. urn. you know, If 1 try to show him an example of. like, of,work and 1--1don't--I-I feell1ke maybe he's looking at me or--or checking me out. 1--1think I'm-I think I'm creating a distance and a wall that--that shouldn't exist between a boss and a--you know. someone like myself. It--It-Allen: So this Is the gw who tells you what to do and yet younyou want to keep away from hlm SUBTITLE: Paraphrase Kathryn: And 1can't. 1mean. 1need to work with him.

Kathryn: Yeah, you know? 1--1 felt bad that--l mean. that he saw me. you know. well. first I should explain. I mean, I was leaving work to go for a run. And so I was in shorts. I wasn't In a-dn a dress or something like that. I mean. I was In shorts--my running shorts--and 1mean. 1--1felt bad. 1--1--1 sort of--apologizlng for how 1 looked and-sand that it was the office and--and that I wouldn't look Uke this way again. Allen: .Now as you look at that. you felt bad SUBTITLE: Reflection of feeling Just look at--back at that. We also talked about anger. What Is the emotion that might be more-what emotion--I hear--I can understand why you'd feel bad. 'Cause you put-your boss Is there and so forth. But. what are some other emotions you might actually really feel In a situation like that? SUBTITLE: Open question Kathryn: Nlen: Anger. &DW SUB1TI1.E:Encourage. Kathryn: Allen: Urn. S-sort of a sadness. An~er, Sadness. SUBTITLE: Encourage Kathryn: Allen: Urn. Frustration. Yeah In a sense 1 also get a little feeling of maybe-- I think those are right on SUBTITLE: Feedback Also maybe feellm! ofbeln~ trapped because he

your boss.

Allen: OkaY I'd like you to ~et lust a little more specific than that Could vou teU me he Is--getnget back In the situation where he comments so directly and offenSively i!bout your lelis. What did you do? What did you say? When It happened? SUBTI1LE: Open questions. concreteness Kathryn: 1-+-1 was--I sort of looked down and--and was real conscious you know 1--1--1 run you know 1--1try to work out" SUBTITLE: Note vocal hesitations like 'Well

SUBTITIE: Reframe, mild Interpretation Kathryn: Oh! Completely trapped! I mean, you mow. what's the comeback line on that one? (rueful laugh) 1don't know! Allen: Okay. So what we're going to do now. uh, Isjust shift a little bit. as I kind of hear the situation. Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Almost defending. urn. rny--rny situation. Urn. And--and because I felt like. you know, because he was looking at them. he was looking at them with a critical eye. maybe. not wlth--you mow, and--and really kind of checking me out. If you will. And 1--1--1 got a Itttle-vycu mow, I looked down. '1 try to work out. 1 try to keep In shape." And-and-Allen: Okay, now I'm going to stop you 'cause what r hear you doing Is. I hear you li,avtng--you looked down uh Nso I klnda heard that you were kinda--aJrnost tOQkIt as If it were your fault what was ~Qlng on Rather than him Am I hearing you correctly?

Allen: Before we come back with a coroeback--and 1think we need. uh, just look at some of the own=the strengths that you have. And later on. uh, in the Interview I'd like to start working on some come-back lines. And maybe we're going to have to go to the. uh. do some real sharp stuff on this. And see Ifwe can negotiate that. as well. But for the moment. uh, J can see that you kinda feel. nunm. uh well. basically what I'd like to dQ Is focus a little bit on some of your strengths,

SUBTITI.E: Positive asset search Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: And. uh, Ijust--I wanted to get two. Could YOutell me uh first Ofall about :what you think you're do~ ~od on the Job? I Just want to hear one of those. SUB1TfLE: Open question TITLE: The positive asset search. To help a client butld a new story, we recommend finding internal and external strengths and supports. We grow from our strengths. Kathryn: Allen: Kathryn' I think my work is. urn, I'm writing well. Mmm-hmm Urn. I'm meeting deadlines. Mmm-hmm

Allen: One of the things I'd like to do when 1work on difficult Issues like this. is not lust start from a position of feeling weak and demeaned I'd strengths Another thing Is that sometimes It's useful to think Lm n role Sl'BTITLE: Information-sharing Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.


Allen: And. uh, how they might handle the situation. Who Is aua hero for yoy as a woman? A role model that yoy'd !lkeusometirnes think about SL'BTITLE:Open question Kathryn: Allen: I mean. 1-1--1think of my mother. I really do. You think of your mother SliBTITLE: Paraphrase Kathryn: Mmm-hmm. I think of her inner strength. Urn. To stand up. Notjust in the face of controversy or like this. you know. maybe sexual harassment, but Just everything. She stood up. back stratght-Allen: Mmrn-hmm.

Kathryn' And I'm--! have reaJly--l'm--l'm showing that--I'm--I'm showing that I'm-I'm liste~ to the clients andu! work with a lot of clients I'm showing that I'm Usten1ne to them and I'm reacting to what they're Ustening--and I feel that those are three great skills to have in my profeSSion.


Mmm-hmm. SUBTITLE:'Note Mmm-hmm's as encourages

Kathryn: +you know, Just right there. Urn. Divorced, You know. Urn. I mean. one of vel)' few women, urn, to get a doctorate at-oat her age. Allen: You sound ven'proud of her.


And I feel--

SUBTJ'ILE: Reflection of feeling Kathryn: Ohl . I--! idolize her! I--! think that she really, the model of--of. urn, of strength In a woman. Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: And as your saying that. 1like the way that you're standing up proudly '1 do-I can listen. 1can speak to clients effectively. And! can--really got my act tocrether" I really hear that. And It makes me feel good to hear that. And 1 also lust like the way that you--so you do have some streneths. And I would lust point out brtetly that those streneths that you already have you could perhaps transfer to working With your boss, Your standini! up speaklni! directly, and so forth Now we're going to need to do a little pit more work-SUBTI'ILE: Feedback. self-disclosure on positive strengths Kathryn: Allen: Yeah! (small laugh) --but now that you've already had the strengths--how does that come across? SUBTI'ILE: Check-out Kathryn: That--that sounds good. I mean. for one, it wouldn't be faking it. 1--1feel it's something I can draw from. from my own experience. Allen: Mrnm-hmm.

you know, she. to me. is

So you really have a strong woman model.

SUBTITLE: Paraphrase Kathryn: I did.

Allen: And you a1soulnteresting enough to me as I look back--how does some of your mother's streneths already show in some of your work on the lOb. in yOu? SU31TfLE: Open question Kathryn: Well. 1 think--I just think my ability to interact With people and to be. you know, urn, focused on them and to. you know, to listen well. Urn. You know. she listens well to people and she reacts well to people. Urn. And as I say she. you know, she kills 'em With niceness. She just never has this angry=angryness about her. Urn. But. I mean, she Just--she just reacts positively to=to a situation. Allen: So Doethin4i you can really draw from your mother is the need to draw positively. SUBTITLE: Paraphrase

Kathryn: And--and maybe put a little of the work that I do with clients on him. And-and really. yeah. I'd--I'd Uke to try that.

Kathryn: Allen:

Uh-huh, At the same time you may have to not always be totally posit!ye-SUBTITLE: Confrontation

Kathryn: Well. not totally posltlve. I mean--but 1mean. just In--in the--tn the face of. like. a stranger or a professional sUo_you know. or Just somethmg like that. I mean posstbly-> . Allen: 50-:59 I heWn I hearnalso hear In this perhaps a c!ue-;and your mother belD2 nice--and--and with the strenlUh and baclqaound there also is anoth--U's-sometJmes to stand up and speak forthrightly and directly. And, lih. that you Can--YOU certainly demonstrated that. And what we're going to do in the next phase--is I'd like to do a Uttle role pl~ with you. about how you might stand up, At the same time a Utile bit later In the session. I'd kinda Uke to talk to you about--do we need to go to some type of more fonnal type of thing? So there's lots of things that can be done but I want you to lmow that uh I've heard that you do have some Issues 00 the Job, Kathryn' Mmm-hmm, I lust want to con1rast that with

Allen' Uh I've heard the feeling of the demeanim~ the feeling of strength from your mother-Kathryn: Mmm-hmci.

Allen' --the strength that you yourself are al th at workiIW those together I thlnkrea.;y d sowing ODthe lob So I think h flu:2 we can do something So how does It seem to you 59 SUBITILE:Summary with check-out

Kathryn: I thlnk--I--I think it's good. The process is good. It feels good to me. It feels natural. I'm not drawing from something that--tbat doesn't exist. Allen: Kathryn: Allen: Kathryn: Mmm-hmm. Yeah. I think we're on track. 1-I--I'm---think we can move forward.

Allen: Another thin" 1 think we perhaps want to need to lOOkat a Uttle later on is asserttveness training And, uh, along that line, uh. I think It's Important that you share this With some other women I mean you're working wJth me more as a counselor- therap 1st SUBTI1LE: Advice/information-sharing

rrna. End


Kathryn has told her story and strengths have been defined. We are ready to "restory" and think about the situation difTerently. TITLE: In the assertiveness example tape, Norma Cluckstern will work With Kathryn 00 moving to behavioral action.

Tape 3: Focuslng TITLE: Focusing the Narrative Helping the Client See Multiple Perspectives Norma: There are many ways to listen to a client's story. But what is really Important IS that we listen to the story as the client is telling it to us. Focusing analysis will help you and the couns--cl1ent--uh, focus In on a variety ofperspectlves of the story. However, many beginning counselors make the mistake of focusing on the initial presenting issue when what is really necessary is that we help thecl1ent experience thIS ISSue. seeing it from their perspective and experience it from their perspective. In the interview that follows. Billy IS going to help AlIen--who will be presenting hIS problem-view it and experience it from a variety of perspectives. TITLE: Focusing: Individual Issues Relate to Family and Cultural Style BUly Roberts with Allen Ivey Allen: (heavy sigh) So, BJIly. I really need. uh, some help. Uh. Here I am in, uh, Massachusetts. My dad's. uh, blind and out in Seattle and (sigh!) it's. uh.jt's really a--a hassle. I mea--I'm getting real puzzled about how to--how--how--how to be helpful. It's-it's really pretty something. Billy: Well, have X9u ~one out to see him? SUBTI1LE: Closed question. Allen: Uh, yeah. I've gone out to talk to them and, uh, so forth. But it's very, very expensive, And then I get out--I'm only out there for a couple of days. And (sigh) I ldnda run around l1ke crazy and I just do the best I can, and I Just sort of--gettin' wound up about it. Billy: him....!!L. Yeah, Well you know, maybe uh there's some nUrsing homes you can put SUBTITLE: Focus on problem: Premature advice. Allen: I don't think he's quite ready for a nursing home. Urn. I think he's still--you know, he--he IS blind but he does have Muriel there to help him. His--and I think that's good. Billy: Urn Muriel is a good friend of his? SUBTITLE: Focus on others: Closed question Allen: Billy: Th--that's--that's Db-huh his, uh, it's his second wife, yeah.

B111y: --you know. give her some direction. help. uh-SUBTITLE: Focus on problem

Maybe you can hire somebody else to

Allen: (inhalation) Ummmmm--well. I've been already doing that and--and so forth, And. uh, uh, I do try to call every week. Sometimes a couple of times a week. Uh. Okay. I think that's probably enough for a demo. Uh. (pause)


The inexperienced helper too often tries to find solutions hearing the client's story.


Billy: Okay. In that example. an example of bow not to. participate tn helpmg someone. we didn't take the time to really understand. the person or the Situation they were facing. We didn't draw out, urn, from the person any of their concerns. We merely stepped In and started to give suggestions and advice. What we want to try to do now is to spend the time to understand--understand the situation and to invite the person to share a little more of their understanding and their experience In--In the helping 'process.


Focusing: Hearmg the story, seeking strengths. perspectives for possible restorymg,

and multiple and

Allen: Hmm. Okay? Okay. So. Billy. uh, there It is. I'm here In Massachusetts dad's out there. and, uh, I'm really kmda puzzled about what to do. Billy: Yoy're a Uttle--X9u're pretty worried about him huh? SUBTITLE: Focus on client Reflection of feeUng

Allen: Yeah! Uh. Jees, my dad's done an awful lot for me. And, uh, here I am. you know, three thousand m1les away--twenty-nve hundred miles away, and I'd really lJke to do more. And 1--1feel ldnda guilty. 1--1do what I can. Uh. The phone and so forth. But. uh, it leaves me feeling k1nda--kinda sad and [get somethlng--you know me, 1 get kinda anxious about it too. sometimes. Billy: Hmm. Can vou--can you tell me a little bit about your dad's situation? SUBTITLE: Focus on Father Open question Allen: Well, dad's, uh, blind and, uh, Muriel--his second wife--uh. and Illy mother died of cancer about ten years ago--and she's been very good and very supportfve. Gee, now, they're eignty-ftve. Uh. He just-she Just had his eighty-flllh birthday and they're getting kinda frail. And, uh, I really would like to be closer and be more supportive to 'em. More supportive. Uh. In one sense they're pretty vital and bright. Of course, not only blind. he's--he's pretty deaf. as well. Billy: Allen: Mmm. 50-So you're It--you're worried about both of them? SUB1TILE: Focus on client and parents: Reflection of feeling

Well maybe the thing to do is Just to uh. call Muriel regularly and--

SUBTITLE: Focus on problem: SUll more advice Allen: Mmm-hmm.


Allen: (affirmative sound) Oh, yeah. And. uh, so it's klnda hard In this long distance to--tomake things happen. And. uh, (inhalation) and then here. uh, uh, I've still got a job to do. Uh. And the kids. 00. I've got these=these college bills. And. uh, jeesl Uh. (heavy sigh) It's really--U's really an awful lot going on. And I find myself not sleeping so well at night, right now. TITLE: An important choice point. Billy could continue to focus on Allen's worries and feelings. He chooses to move the focus to a broader understanding. Btlly: Mmm-hmm. Whatnwhat--what kind of urn. plans have you made? you thought about any. you !mow. urn possible al--altematives? Options? SUB1TI1..E:Focus on problem: Open question Allen: At this point. uh, (sigh) I'm sitting there kind of. uh, (pause) I think kind of-1--1 guess I don't lmow. I really haven't done an awful lot. Uh. Let--Iet me as k something else Al Are-cts=are Billy: expectattons-A~ Have

Allen: Well. that actually is a good question. Billy. Is that, uh, as you say that. I kinda feel a--anxiety In my stomach and I said to my--"Ohl" (inhalation) In one sense, I'm pushing a little hard, uh, being him and who he is, I think he'd kInda wanna hang on tough as long as he could. And, uh, maybe I oughta lay back a little bit more. 1TILE: Note that this timely closed question worked and led Allen to a new perspective of understanding his father's story more completely. Nonetheless. use closed questions carefully as they lead the client. 1TILE: Elaborating the story using focus analysis Billy: Allen: Billy: Allen: --I'd hke to ask a couple of questions. Okay. Sure. --and to focus on a couple of things, if we could. Okay.

there some familY

Billy: Urn, Uh. Could Outell me a Uttle bit more about. urn uh, your--your family of ortI1in? Urn You know because you're concerned about your dad and--and his wife. But are there-om there anybodye)se involved that needs to be concerned about this? SUI31TILE: Focus on famIly: Open question
--that you ~ll assume res--some of the responsibility um--

WilY' fJl.e.n' IDl!Y.;. all.!:n..; WilY'

--for vour dad andn Mmm-hmm. --uh, as he gets older? SUB1TI1..E:Focus on client and family

Allen: Ohl Oh, my sister is; uh, is, uh--she is, uh-vshe is really hassled. Ph, right now with her Job and, uh, uh , my kids are really basically through college and she's work--working on the college thing and, uh, she backs up fairly well, pretty well. I think we all think we do more than our share. but I think she's doing her full share where she is right now. Billy: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: But, uh, urn, she's supportive, certa1nly. But. uh, I klnda feel that--kinda r-kinda rests on my shoulders, uh, right now. SUBTITLE: Note that Billy's frequently uses encourages to help draw out the story Billy: So you've talked to her about this? SUBTITLE: Focus on family: Closed question Allen: Billy: No. Okay. But you still feel that the responsibility is yours? Yeah I do feel as-And she agrees with you? SUBTITLE: Focus on client and family: Confrontation Allen: Mmmm, well--

Allen: (inhalation) You know, that's one of the places where I do get. uh. a Uttle confused. you know. Uh. I come from a--anbasically a Anglo-Celtic background My dad actuaUy Is Ce1t1c-CQrn.1sh and uh I was kinda raised In one of these families where--stand in your own boat. I was encouraged to get out on my own. get away from home. all that stuff and so forth. And. uh. and. uh. the boundaries in our--our family have been prettv t1ght. SUBTm...E: Individual styles often relate to family and cultural history And yet, this is always that very difficult issue. "When do I move in?" Uh. And. uh, take over more? And. uh, and I want to stand back at the same time. Bll ly: Mmrn-hrmn. Has your dad. urn, given you any Indication of. you know. where he Is in terms of wanting your assistance or--? SUBTITLE: Focus on father and problem: Closed qu esuon

tJkn lllUy'


-- ... you've sort of done on your own?

fJk.n; ~

I aJways want to sQrt of make syre th1nflS are f,!oinzwell and--

Allen: --1 hear yoy Uh I don't know if that's what's you're saytne Xnother words I may be takinfl (slflh) a little bit more Main on my shQulders. a little more responsibility than--X--X thlnk--X have not really talked about it No I hear yoy sayinfl that I'm klnda 2Q~ on like the Lone Ranf,!er. uh. th1nk!nf,! about myself. SUBTITLE: Confrontation results In new perspective and insight Billy: Allen: Billy: Juvolved? Well. It'S something--lt's Yeah, I hear you. something to think about anyway.


B!l1y: --and fix:thlnf,!s, And. uh, sometimes I have to slow down and take account that there are other people who are also involved,



Mmm-hmm, Especially the--the person I'm really concerned about.

b Okay what fLoU to-what about--are there awother SUBTITLE:. Focus on family: Open question f~ members that are

You know? Mmm-hmm,



Ke--!! (slf,!hl
SUBTITLE: Focus on counselor: Self-disclosure

Allen: Billy:

Well. of course. uh, my wife and. uh, and my--and my--my boys. ~at--canyou talk a little bit abQut that situation? Allen:

SUInJTLE:Encourage Allen: And, uh, yeah. Yeah. Mary's very supportive. Ub. She listens to me a lot. Uh. Her mother Is, uh, 18 moving along In years. too. and so we kinda share those issues together. We're very concerned. Sometimes we thlnk--and I think maybe Mary does, as-as I think about It--I think Mary probably 18 th!nk1ng the same thing. We're klnda moving her mother in before her mother's even (small laugh) thinking of closing down her house! I think maybe--both of us may be pushing a little too hard on this. Uh. And I--If I start getting on myself and th!nk1ng about Mary--and then of course the thing 18, we have that whole pull from the--from the kids. And my boys are supportive. And, uh, in that sense (pause). okay. I guess I'm not as alone In this thing as I thought I was. Billy: Hmm. So your boys are interested In-sand Involved and want to help? 1TILE: Allen has focused so much on himself and his responsibilities that he has failed to note the many positive family resources which can help build a new and more positive story. Allen: Yeah. I mean, like kids. they--you know, they--they kind of--little hard to imagine grampa getting older and all of that. But, uh, I'd say they're basically supportive and they'll give them a call now and then. Gone to see 'em. I'm lucky! I really am lucky. I--I--maybe I'm making more of thls-Billy: mY.ill,. bllen' Well, you lmow Allen. some--you know, somethlne you say reminds me of Uh-huh?

I hear you.

Billy: I want--rnaybe--maybe you can tell me a little bit aboyt urn uh your--your-YQyr family bacIqaoynd cultural baclg!roynd Alkn' Y~h, Partlcularlv your'dad and how he sees thinfls SUBTITLE: Focus on culture/family Allen: Yeah. he's, uh--In that sense, you know that. uh, I've given a lot of thought to rnulticulturallssues in counseling, And part of that --I've gone Into own cultural heritage and I've done a lot of work with the Cornish-Celtic group, And--




Can you tell me lust a U1tle about the Cornish-Celtic f,!rQup? SUBTITLE: Focus on culture Open question

Allen: Well, it=tt's Celtic, very much like the Irish. And It is incredibly stubborn. Independent. Uh, (pause) Tends to hold back emotions. Uh, Not talk a lot. Maybe a little secretive. Very proud. Defiant. Uh. It's--and yet, and we have a say-there's a cul=there's a saying in Cornwall, "One and All: which is kind of intriguing. And I think 1t really says we are individuals and yet we are together as well. And It's a little different than, uh, total Inner connection, It's klnda llke--it's a big emphasis on independence. B!l1y: Mmm-hmm.


And that Is as the oldest in my famlly-Mmm, That's me, I have always assumed more responsibility than T probably need to Allen: And, god, uh, that certainly was true In my history. Is that. uh, I was always expected to get away, be on my own, be an individual and all of that, And as I've gotten into multicultural--I've said, 'Why all this emphasis?' And 1--1really:mJss my dad! And I'm doing what, in fact, my family upbringing says. "Hey, I would like to be closer."


SlJBTlTLE: Alleviation of concerns often shows In the body lTILE: Cultural tssues from the family of ongtn often appear In client here and now behavior Billy: Mnun. So, I'd--I'd like to just go back because at the begfnnlng of your description, XQU used the word "stubborn." And I wonder If we could translate that into "determined?"

Billy: Allen: Billy: Allen: Billy:

Mmm. And it is a pattern for me to (small pause) overkill. Mmm-hrnm. And worry a problem to death. And-So, um, but=but the--the wony is not always bad, is It? No. It's just how you act on it? Yeah,

Focus on culture and family: Positive reframe/interpretation

Allen: Billy: Allen:' Billy: Allen:

yeah? So you think that's a-better word?

Allen: Billy:

Yeah, And that certainly describes my dad! Allen: Okay, He's such--so gutty. detennined k1ndaperson Urn LIkes SUBTIILE: Return to problem focus and the client: Open question Allen: (sigh) Yeah, I think that. you know, Just--eh--in dealing with you here and-and sort of focusing on It from another perspective. I sit there and say-I'm tnclmed, number one, to=and -It--lt's almost like I need to just relax In my gut. And. uh, not push so hard. Uh, J think I need to stay on the phone, stay alert, make sure that the--the help is there. And I tbJnkwe need to get somebody In, uh, constantly. And 1don't think I have seen to that. to see='cause dad's going to say everything is fine when It might not be fine, And If I'm over here, I think we're going to have to follow up with that. So I think. there is some action I've gotta take. And, uh, but I've been sort of going on as If I should do It. And I think I need to (sigh) talk to my sister. older brother needs 10 talk to younger sister! (laugh) I Identify With what you're saying! Say, well. maybe we oughta have a little more open chat about this. I've got some beginning ideas. Thank you, Billy. Billy: You're welcome,
1ITLE: Billy reviews the session

Billy: Okay, So. yoy knoW wh--what--what are vou thinking about now as--as possible courseS of actIon? Wbat--what do yoy feel like yoy oue;ht to do or want to do or need to do now?

Billy: Okay So he's a very IndMduallstlc to be self-contained,

SUBTITLE:Focus on father and culture: Reframe/lnterpreta tion Allen: Bmy: Allen: cultural Bmy: Yeah. And I'm sure doesn't want to be dependent? Oh! (whew!) Ah, he doesn't want to be dependent, you got it! That is that frame. And--and It's that family frame. So part of your stru~e;le Is how to help without crossing that boundary? SUBTITLE: Focus on client, family, and culture Interpretation/reframe Allen: Yeah. Mmm-hmrn. And I have--yeah. Yeah, It=tt's true. And, uh, he seems to like my support but If I start doing too much, it's--mmm. Billy: Mmm. Well, you--maybe we can sort of think, now having sort oflooked at some of those elements, where you are With thls--!--I don't know If any of this has sort of helped you to sort out --


--any ofyour--your thoughts and feelings, SUB1TI1..E: Focus on client: Open question

Well. this was to me an interesting, uh, Interaction With Allen and his concern about his dad and-- and taking care of him, Urn. I think what we tried to do was to focus on different elements of concern that he had, to try to identify them, put some--inake them concrete so that he could then sort of. uh, Interpret them and tn=tncorporate them Into his. urn, decision-making process. Uh. One of the things that we didn't have a chance to discuss was some of his perhaps angry feelings about being saddled with this responsibility. Uh. In my conversation With him after this. uh, Interaction that you saw, he indicated that. uh, when his mom died about ten years ago, there were a 10tta feelings that he had back then, and he had a chance to work through. Urn. So that Isn't such a major concern. But anger. uh, does sort of surface, or the residuals of the anger does sort of surface periodically and one has to be sort of mindful about that. Uh, the--the very, um, I think useful thing about this interaction for you might be that you have a chance to identify the tndfvtdual and their concerns, the familial concerns. so that it's In a context. But then also the=the cultural entities. Urn. those elements of one's his .. history and one's cultural experience that enters Into every interaction. uh, and it must be understood and appreciated and valued in order to be really helpful to=to a person. So. Uh. I look forward to, uh, helping you again.

Allen: Yeah. Well. Yeah. in--In a broad sense, I begin to see that. uh--in fact. Bill, just talking to you--and this--J mean, this is not just, you know, for the tape and like that. I can reel-not Just because it's on tape--! can feel my shoulders knot as much like this I kinda fee! like uh uh you know a little more centered about It Vb 'Cause the Issue really is--is one that I k1nda struggle with

End Focusing

Tape 4: Confrontation TTI1..E: top tape: OITerAllen a supportive confrontation S TITLE: Confrontation: Supporting While Challenging 1TfLE: Vignette 4: Incongruity In family Allen: Our next skill is that of confrontation. No. we're not Interested In having you, uh, attack your client. We aren't Interested In you tearing apar--confrontation is a word that somehow the counseling field has chosen to help a client identify when they aren't being fully consistent wtth themselves. Ah, In someways I prefer to think about the word "challenging" and think of It as, by the way, a supportive challenge. So what, uh, we'd like to begin this tape with Is Identifying some dlscrepancles the clients might show and then as you Identify discrepancies, I'd like you to think about a model confrOntation so-sentence. Which basically is supportive. And It kind of begins wtth, '1 hear you saying--"-- supportive--"--on the one hand, such-and-such, but on the other hand I hear you saymg such-and-such. How do you put those two together?" And believe It or not. sometimes. just actually hand-balancing to point out the difference can actually be useful sometimes--to "phystcahze" the session. So we're going to do some quick. short demos of inconsistencies and--or--or dlscrepancies. Identify the discrepancies and try some of the model sentences. "On one hand this, and on the other hand that," TInE: Identifying Discrepancies and Incongruity TITI..E:Stop tape: How would you confront Norma? Given dimensions of denial, how are you going to be supportive? TITI...E: onfrontation: Problematic patterns In one relationship C often appear In the next relationship as well Mary Ivey with Norma Gluckstern Mary: Norma: Hi. Norma. How're you doing? Good. Kathryn: My sister and I are planning this blg party for my parents. And as soon as we get Involved in the plans, she Just takes a back seat to the whole thing and--and just wants me to do It all. I don't have time. but 1--1have to! This is their party; we want to make it perfect! (pause) TITI..E:Stop tape: Given dimensions of denial. how are you going to be supportive and confront Kathryn? TITI..E:vignette 5: Incongruity between actions and words Norma: Just because I'm trying to straighten out your shirt doesn't mean I'm attacking you. I'm satisfied With the way you look. but why don't you fix that shirt? (pause) You already resent-the way you presented the--my comments, and said I was defenstve. I don't think I'm a defensive person. I think I've been pretty open to you. And I really reject anything that you told me. (pause)

TITI...E: bserve these clients. Identify discrepancies O and reflect them back via a supportive confrontation TITLE: Vignette 1: Incongruity between people (Stop tape after each vignette) Billy: You know, I'm really sort of a--an adventuresome kind of person. Uh, I like to travel to different countries and explore different cultures and really understand first-hand. experientially, what they're like. And, uh, I'd like to do that as much and as often as I can. But I have a challenge. And that Is my wife. who I'd love to share it with me, is really a homebody. She prefers to stay close to home and to do things there. So I'm constantly In this bind of wanting to go and wanting to also be with her, wanting her to come, and wanting to be where she Is. SOIt'S. you know, It's--It's awkward. TITI...E: top tape S On one hand. Billy you feel .... but on the other hand, your wife feels ... (As appropriate ~ supportive followup.) TITLE: vignette 2: Incongruity between words and action (Stop tape Mary: Oouder) 1 don't know what the problem Isl My report's only a week late! TITLE: Stop Tape. "Mary. on one hand ... , but on the other hand ... " TITLE: vignette 3: Discrepancy between words and feelings Allen: I don't know why you say I'm nervous. Uh. I--I've prepared for this project for a long time and, uh, I'm going to be fine. Don't=don't worry about me. (pause) (sigh) I'm really feeling torn. Uh. One part of me really wants, uh, to do what you suggest. 1--1-1really do. But I keep th1nldng about. you know. what might happen if I actually did it and it makes me feel a UttJe(rtghtened. I like the Idea that--that--wow. (pause)

Mary: Good. Nice to see you. Well, I guess well continue talking about the things we were talking about before. the marriage situation now and what It was like before and what it's like now. Norma: You know-Ipauser-dt's the second marriages, you know. And I--I'm really very happy In my marriage with Bill. . Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: Bu t 1 see the same thing ha ppentng with Bill that happened when I was married to John. And it seems to me that I'm always wrong. They're never wrong. And no matter what I do, no matter what I say--and I try to be cooperative-owe always sink to these petty arguments. And I just--I justfee1 that U's--it's not my fault. And 1 do everything to do to help the situation and instead I get back, well. you are--you're being unreasonable. Norma. And I--Just--just (slgh)--I don't see myself as being unreasonable. I really think I am very reasonable. Mary: Mrrun-hmm. Mnun-hrom. So it sounds like urn the situation from the last marrla~e !soots the same kind of pattern occurrin~ In--In this marria~e And --and urn they're sa~ you're not very reasonable and you think you're vexy reasonable. SUBTITLE: Paraphrase


And, you know, 1--1think I'm always gMng In to arguments. I'm always In. It's always giVing In. And at times I feel. well. maybe I'm right! And that 1 never hear them say, "You're right." It always they're right. And it just seems we're getting Into the same pattern that 1 got into with John. I'm getting In with Bill. And it Is creating some problems In the marriage. 1 have to admit It's creating problems In the marriage. Mary: Mmm-hmm. Okay. so the kinds of problems that you had In the first marriage are very similar to what you're expetiencing right now and--and urn the Issues are--are kind of similar and it has to do with arguing. SUBTITLE: Accurate paraphrasing Norma: Mmm-hmm. is supportive

Mary: Norma'

Mrnro-hmm. No

So you don't see yourself as be~


Mary' But tbey--they say you're competitive Qur--your vision of yourself is not compet1tlye. But everyboc1Yelse's--the men in voyr lifc seC yoy as bclnt in competition with them. SUBTITLE: Confrontation 1Tl1.E: BRIEF PORrlON OF INIERVIW cur HERE Mary: Okay, Norma. we've been talking a little bit and 1think 1 understand the sttuanon, But let's--let's see jfwe can't talk about a specific e;grrnole and see ifwe can't understand this Just a little bIt better SUBl1TLE: Concreteness Norma: You know. if we're reading the newspaper or watching the news or something, and--and there'll be some interesting--happening in the world .. .And he'll say, 'You know, I think that. uh, this is my opinion of what's going on in that situation." And then I sometimes don't think he's analyzed it right now, and I'll say, "No, 1 don't think It's right." Or I say. '1 don't think it's right. And this is the way I thInk--that I look at it." And this thing starts escalating and all of a sudden we're in a competition. Who's right about the article or who's right about what the reporters saying. And, urn, I think be's unreasonable. I think that I am fairly reasonable. I'm-and he tells me my voice is up--unreasonable and it just--and it begins to escalate. And then all of a sudden what I think happens is we become in competition, who's gonna win. One up, one down. And It's--tllen--as I'm talking, but I mean. I'm so angry [frustrated laugh)-Mary: Well. it SQunds--sounds like you're saying on the one hand that. uh. you know he thinks you're unreasonable and and you don't You think you're very reasonable, On the other hand--uh on the other hand as you talk. Norma I hear that anger c01J1lneout as you're talkin" about the sItuation So. uh Perhaps you are a little bit angry! And he's tight! SUBTI1LE: Confrontation Norma: All right, let me-vlet me just calm down a little bit. Uh, because this is a what happens, then, is I start getting depressed. And I start feeling--well. I guess 1start feeling, well, he doesn't care about me. 'Cause ifhe cared about me, he would--ifhe loved me, he would certainly, uh, pick up on what I was feeling and maybe he'd think [was right. And so I get depressed and then he Withdraws and I withdraw. And then we go stalking around the house for a week. And I really think It's his fault. He never really reaches out and comes to me. And Iv-and I reach out and come to h:!m and [just think he rejects it. Mary: So you feelllke you reach out to him and then he isn't doing anyt:h~ and he's not belplW and dOinllhis part. And--and you don't. uh. seem to take any respoDSlbU!b' for your interaction In thIs is that you sound J[ke you're always rtaht SUBTITLE: Confrontation

onsilile for any of hear you not u m feeling hand I ca n hear in your other re--resp . And on I've What's before andy ~1his relationship. Mary.b ut You know, the one :~~u happe~ to this voice some an ger about w SUBTITLE; ..Confrontation Norma: Absolutely. Absolutely. And. uh, I don't know, uh. well, 1 don't really know what to do about it. Um. Because--and it starts over Just trivial things. And we can read--be reading the newspaper and--and finding out what's going in the world and, uh, urn, Bill will say, 'Well. I think this is happening," and I'll say. 'Well, I don't think you're right." And then he gets indignant because I I'm telllng him I don't think he's right. 1 don't understand why he should get indignant about that. Mary: Mmm-hmm. So you're--buton the one hand. you're saying you're ,,"1 don't think you're tight." YOu Wow. you're telling him sort of angrtlv. "I don't think you're ~ht." And then he gets uPset about It. So. you lmow. you're saying naughter In voice!. you Wow. "I don't think you're right" On the other hand. you lmow. maybe there're some other ways that you could. uh express how you're feeling with him, And th~s could work out a Uttle better, SUBTITLE: Confrontation Nonna: Well, you point out something that. uh, that 1hadn't thought about. Because it is sort of like a confrontation. We all--we--we seem to get Into sort of this competitive thing --'Who's going to wln the argument?" 'And 1 don't think of myself s being competitive, But he keeps telling me, "But you are competitive and you're always trying to see if you can one-up me and that really Irks me." Mary: So on the one hand. you're--he's saying you're competitive, but you're not-and you're saying you're not competitive And I remember from the other marriage that uh. competition waS a bill Issue. SUBTITLE: Confrontation That, uh, the competition between the two of you and--and sounds like that pattern is occurring again. And he's pointing out and you're not seeing that there is some competition between the two of you. Nonna: Well, you know, Mary. 1never thought of myself being competitive. And so to be honest with you. even though 1--1think I'm just competitive With myself. I didn't think I was competitive. say. wIth you or with somebody else. And so. really, It--it's not the viston I have of myself as being competitive.


You lmow, thlngs--so much of the--what happened in the previQus marriage were the
competition there and--and you sort of blame It on the other person. And it's always. urn their fault. And not necessar11y your taking some responsibillty that--that you mIght have something to do with what's hapm:n1na In thIs relationship.

Kathryn: SUBTITI.E: Feedback Norma: Well. you've pointed out something sort of interesting, Mary. that there Is a similarity In what's going on between Bill and myself now, and what went on between John and myself. We would get Into these things and--and we'd all--I'd get all--the dialogue Is almost the same. But I guess I'm not really thought that I was contributing to it. And you're sort of pointing out to me that maybe I am. (sigh) Wen. Mary: Right now I'm feeling you're looking at the situation just a little differently. As you'rebrlnglng--looklng at the past marriage and looking at the marriage now. How's that sound to you. Norma? Norma: What--I think you're=you're right. That 1--1really hear what you're saying. I really understand 1t. But It's going to be hard for me to change! (small laugh) Gonna be hard because. uh, oh, I already sound as if I'm ready to fight again! I want to be-dn fact. I'm already trying to JUstify to you and tell you you're wrong. So. uh, this seems to be a pattern that I've established. Mary: Mrom-hmm. As you're talklng you have a smile on your face and I can sUll ~e~~~erly1ngnandYOU're annoyed at me and that underMng anger the same sort f at you have towards your ex-husband and now you have this husband, so, SUBTITLE: Confrontation Norma: integrate Mary: Right. Right. Right. This is really very helpful. Mary. And now I have to, uh, It. .. Integrate itl (laugh]

Oh, yeah.

Norma: Well at least--I thought what I heard last week Is that you're tom between your relationship with Michael and your commitment to your work, SUBTITLE: Confrontation Kathryn: (short laugh) Tom? I'm not tom. Michael's the problem. has the total problem In this relatiOnship not me SUBTITLE: Levell: Norma: Kathryn,



reallv reacted when! used the word 'lorn"

SUBITIlE: Feedback, reflection of feeling Kathryn: Well. J--(sighl--l think he's--1 think he's there but he's just got--he'snhe's gotta give a httle bU more But--but maybe--maybe he can't Maybe he can't be there don't know. SUBTITLE: Level 2: Partial aclmowledgment Norma: As we were talldngJust now,it seemed to me that you were taking-understanding a little bit of how Michael was But how do you fit into the picture? Kathryn: Well, I lqJow Michael's trv!n2 and L you }mow admtre him for that and I respect him for that Urn I real1ze that yeah. that--that work Is a big deal to me and that maybe! need to be a little bit more well-rounded balanced in my life And that work can have a rolena Very Important role. mind you. But that I also need to see Michael's point of view and where he fits Into the picture and in our relationship, SUBTITlE: Level 3: Full acknowledgment. no change Is a

Norma: And that may not be so easy, but. uh, and--and we could--ifyou don't mlnd,if I could come and talk to you a Uttle bit more about this. because it's-Mary: Oh, absolutely. Just to think about these thJngs and see what we--what we can do. And--and see ifwe can do something about changing some of those patterns. Norma: Mary: Then I can argue with you! Okay. right! (laugh) TITLE: End Confrontation Vignette

TITLE: Movtng acknowledgment of discrepancies to level 3. awareness vital beginning, but It is not action. In the next two examples. we see levels 4 and 5-mov!ng toward change.

Norma: The last time we were here you seemed to be understanding both your perspective and Michael's perspective. but I wonder where you're going to go from here at this point. Kathryn: 1think 1 1think MIchael and J need t6 sit down and talk. urn I think we .. need to, you know, lust have a--a very good con--open, urn, non-confrontationaL uh. conversation about my life my Job, and his life and then our life together as a whole, Because It is--! think we need to reach that stage I'm not sure how we're going to 2et there, but 1know U's going to take some time But H think that's the next step (or us. Maybe we can talk about that, urn, next time. SUB1TI1E: Level 4: Moving toward change Norma: The next time, we can talk about that. And then maybe I'll talk to you and give you some ideas about how you deal with negotiating skills. 'Cause that's what you're going to try to do-Kathryn: Norma: (laugh) --negotiate the differences.

TITLE: ldentlfying the Five Levels of the Confrontation Impact Scale Norma Gluckstern with Kathryn Bohn

TITLE: The next segments Ulustratlon the Confrontation Impact Scale. Note how Kathryn moves from denial to awareness. If you observe your clients, you note how they respond to confrontation and other interventions, thus tndicatmg their willingness and ability to change and move. Norma: Kath--Kathryn. urn. last week when we were here. you were talking about your job and MIchael. Do you want to continue, uh, talking about that?

Kathryn: Nanna: Kathryn:

That would be really helpful Okay. GoodtalkJngtoyou. Oood=yeah, thank you.

Nanna: Kathryn. this Is our third session and Irecall last time we talked about your developing some negotiation with Michael. And I'd Uke to know how it was going with you. come to some resolution. Kathryn: "Well I think we have urn I'ye--some decisions I've made--and I've had to make them on my own-=ehanges about myself. have been. you know. keeping--worked to the work week. And. urn. not workini more than one late night a week. Urn. And not lYQrkinfl on weekends really tly1nfl to keep those weekends too-for each other. And be.'s. urn be's realized the importance of my work Andnand no lonfler criticized it and aa1d that. you know well "I don't know why you're workini that much. S~: Level 5. Transcendence

You're not=you're not getting paid enough" or something Uke that. And instead he's Just succumbed to the fact that--not succumbed. 1--1mean. he's-she's compromised and he's seen that--that it makes me really happy. I feel really good about it and it's a passion of mine. And 1think that. urn, that--that's really good for him. And I've seen that--that-he can be-she can be in that role and-sand be supportive. And yet I can change a little bit and-sand J think together we can sort of work out the differences that we have and. urn. sort of move together a little bit more smoothly. Norma: Kathryn: Norma: 1 like whatI'm (laugh) --sounds like you don't need any help now. But if you ever do. come back, hearing and--

Kathryn: Well! Yeah. 1--1thtnk--I think we need to continue to=tc work on the--you know. the communication factor, urn. as long as we continue to talk. Urn. I'm sure that. you know. Michael and I. you know. whatever mountain we face that we can climb It. you know. kind of together to give a really bad cliche. But that's good. I mean. I think that's Important. It's good. Thanks, I really appreciate it. 'ITILE: End Confrontation Tape

Tape 15:Directives TITLE: Directives: Case Example with Procrastination William L. H. Roberts wtth Mary lvey Billy: HI, urn, the next sklll we're going to talk. about is the skill of directives. Uh, in the helping process, it's useful, uh, to be able to provide the=the client with some specific directions, uh, in order to, uh, facilitate their movement. Um. Uh. Today, uh. we're gorma talk with Mary who has a particular challenge in dealing With procrastination. She's gonna, uh, share, uh, what her experience is. And I'm gonna ask questions and try to draw out what it's like for her. Uh,but also I'm gonna try to identify some of the strengths that she has. Urn. Typically directives is used near the end of the helping interview and so you'll--we'll arrtveat that point. Urn. So. TITLE: Note that Billy uses the word "challenge" rather than "problem." Many feel that challenge, concern. or issue are more useful words than problem. Billy: Mary: Billy: Hi, Mary, how're you doing?

Mary: Billy:

Yeah. Yeah. Mmm--OK--what Is It that keeps you from being prepared?

Mary: I don't know! I--you know. I. urn--I guess Ijust sort of put it off. I keep th.Ink1ng'Well, it's. you know, that's a-vthat's a ways. I can--I can-you know, I'll do it tomorrow." Billy: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: And I ldnda put it off and-sand then I just kinda put it in the back of my mind and say, well, you know, I'll get at It a Uttle bit later. Billy: Mmm-hmm. Mmm.

Mary: And then I've sort of been anxious about it and I think. "ugh." I don't want to deal with it exactly. You know, I don't think it's gonna be very good or I worry about how--what it's gonna sound like and so I just don't do anything about it. I just keep worrying about it. Billy: Mary: Hmm. And then you just keep putting it off and putting it off. Right.

Hi, Billy. I'm fine. You came, uh, to discuss a couple of things with me today?

Billy: 1--1 see. Well, MaD', 1--1wonder 1f urn. there might be a couple of th!.n@you'd like to by. That might help you. Would--would you be willing? SUBTI1LE: Involve client as participant TIfLE: Having heard the story, Billy now demonstrates alternative directives TIfLE: Dtrectrve Example 1: Advice Drawn from Positive Resource Support Network Billy: Okay. Allright. Let me ask you, is there someone in your life, in your family, or your circle of friends who you really admire. especially around this issue of putting things off? Mary: Well. Billy. I think about my grandmother. Her name is Amanda Jensen. And. uh. she lived on a farm. tile family farm. And, uh, she was a fanner's wife and did all those things that a fanner's wife did and, uh, she was so, you know, on time and. you know, she had to co things on time 'cause it's the farm and thmgs have to get done! Billy: Mary: BllIy: Urn. well-Like. you know. the chores have to get done and things like that. Like, give IDe--giveme some examples, SUBTITLE: Concreteness

Mary: Yes, urn, I was gonna talk. to you a little bit about how anxious I get whenever I have to speak in front of a group, and, you mow, just how very nervous-vnervewracking it is and how diff--anxiety producing and stressful it is. Bllly:


Can you gtve me uh. a little example of what happens for you?

SUBTITLE: Open question: Concreteness Mary: Well--well, I have to speak in front of my, urn, school. And, urn. I just get very nervous. I mean, urn, my hands get all wet and sweaty and my stomach churns, and 1--1 worry about It for days ahead of time. Sometimes I don't even sleep that well. Billy: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: And then finally I get around to doing something about it and preparing a little bit beforehand. but I--! never feel really comfortable doing It. It's always very difficult and very stressful. Billy: Mmrn. Is there urn Man'. Is there any uh occ--occaSIOD when you have to make a presentation when you dont feel anxious and worried? SUBTITLE: Search for positive assets Mary: Well, sometimes if I really get organized and have overheads ready and I'm going to do a talk or something, and-sand I think through what I'm gonna say and I get those overheads ready. and! practice a bit, then I feel a little bit better. But that's sorta rare! (small laugh) Billy: Uh-huh. so it's preparation that really helps.

Mary: Well, I-J think of her. urn, you know, on the farm. And I think ofthe--tbe-the alarm going off. Actually sometimes the alarm didn't go off: you could hear the cows mooing and that meant. you know, it was time to get up and sunrise and get up with the-get up with the cows! (small laugh) Literally! And she's out in the bam milking cows, and I see her in the separator house there with all those big buckets of milk and. you

know. pouring them In and separating the milk and the cream. and then carrying them down. uh, to the cooling house whlch then goes to the. uh, dairy. Billy: Mary: Billy:
So she did all of those things every day.

Mary: BllIy: Mary:

Mmm-hmm. Um, uh, oh, for the next presentation Okay. you have to make.

Every day. Every single day. Seven days a week. Mmm-hmm.

Mary: Then she'd go home and cook for the thrashers or cook for the farmers and-and tend the garden. And she did it every day. Without complaining, she just=that was her life. Billy: What do you--what--what do you think helped her to keep doing that?

BlUy: Let's do a little test and just try to just simply do it. Do it lmIDediately. You know, as something-vone other thing that you have to do. And not wony so much about who's going to be-you're going to be presenting to. whether they're gonna like it or not and whether it's a reflection of you personally or professionally and just do it. Do you think that's possible? Mary: Yeah! Maybe I could just think of my grandma. Just the way she lust Was out there dom' it every sine-Ie day with a e-ood attitude and maybe I could just think (small laugh) of her all the time! SUBTI1LE: Drawing 'on positive models often helpful Billy: RIght. That mlght give me some real extra strength to-vto do=to do this.

Mary: Well. I think that she wanted to, you know. she knew she had to feed the family and she had to=thts was part of her lifel That she just. uh, did. She took responsibility. She's a very responsible person. And, urn, and did it because she knew she had to do it! No one else was gonna do it! (small laugh) Billy: Mmm-mmm-hmm. she Is? She was? In--in your life. urn, are you responsible in the way that


Mary: Well, you know, in terms of this problem. 1--1 think, you know. I put off a little bit. 1--1 procrastinate and 1--1 wish 1 could be more-you know, attacking things and doing things. you know. on time and were on top of things like she was. Bmy: Mmm-hmro Mmm-hmro I wonder If maybe if you Viewed your re8J!onslbillties in the same way that you View her chores as lust thines that have to be slone every slay. If that would make a sl1fTerence. Directives as advising the client Mary: You know. I--(small laughl-dt's funny. When I thought about that. You know? Because maybe if I thought of it as 'Just chores you have to do," 'This is something you have to do," rather than put it off and wait and just plain do itl Something that has to be done and not worry about it. get anxious. Just simply get it done with and do It. And not go through all this other emotional trauma about it. Bllly: Right. I think maybe, uh, some of the other feelings come=are connected to the fact that other people=you're worried that other people may judge you. Mary: Right, tbink-think it was--yeah. Probably so. Yeah.

Billy: Good. Good. And also think. urn.' that there's not only this one thing but there are a series of things that are gonna have to-ycu have to do today and also tomorrow and the next day. So you'd better just (claps hands) go ahead and get it done. Mary: Right. TInE: Directive Example 2: Relaxation using positive imagery and breathing instruction B!lIy: Okay. Let's try it. You know, let's think about another-vanother, another way to go about it. Mary: Okay. um--oh,

Billy: Uh. And that is, when you get, uh, uh, concerned or anxious. what--what-what-what kinda feelings do you have? Mary: Well. I have sort of. you know, my hands get a little sweaty. My stomach starts churnmg. Urn. I don't sleep at night. I have to kind of wake up and think about it in the middle of the night. Urn. That --those kinds of things going on. Btlly: Would yoy like to try maybe. urn a little relaxation technique? wtth some of that? SUBTITLE: Involving the client To help you

Billy: And so if it's justo-if they're a series of chores and things that have to get done. they're things that you just do. Mary: Bmy: Mary: Bllly: Mary: Bllly: You just do it. Uh-huh.

Mary: Yeah. it'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Well. maybe--maybe. let's try. Okay?


Billy: I'd llke to suggest that you--you do. You know, urn. can you think of a place where you really just=really love. There are no pro-doesn't feel llke there are any pressures or any worries, you know, and you really feel just restful. Can you think--? Mary: That's easy. That's our place on Lake Sunapee. lovely just to look at the lake down by the water. It's a beautiful place and

Bllly: afternoon

Can you des--can you describe a little more, maybe a moment or a day or an or a couple of hours when It was (whlspers) just wonderful!

Bllly: And then vlsual1z1ng yourself on that special lake at that special time of year when It's really just heavenly. Mary: Mmmm. Summertime I (small laugh) Yeah. And see if that can help-Okay. --you know, urn. move you out of that anxiety.

Mary: WeD, I Uke to be down by the beach there. and just looking out when it's sort of the quiet part of the day and maybe the motorboats are gone. and just to look at pretty sailboats and see the, uh, mountains in the background and the-Billy: do that? Mary: Mary, close your eyes for a second Yup! (small laugh)
e .

B!lly: Mary:

And just imagine yourself there. Can you Billy: Mary: Right. So when I have this tendency to start worrying, then I just start thinking about the lake and the-Billy: Mary: Exactly. =calmness of the lake and the mountains--

Billy: Okay. now, I want you to take a couple of deep breaths, with your mouth closed. Just very deep and exhale very slowly. (payse) Can yoy ytsual!ze that beautiful

SUBTITLE: Visual Imagery Mary: Blily: Yes. Beautiful. Mmm-hmm. Can you feel the sun beating down on you?

Btlly: Exactly. And then when you feel relaxed and--and-well. a little more at ease, then go ahead and actually begin your--your work. Mary:

Then begin working after I'm more relaxed. Right. Okay! Good! Thanks, Billy! All right. You're welcome. (sigh) TITLE: Directive Example 3: Looking at personal history and using paradox: help clients notice what occurs spec1flcally for them as it Is related to the past.

SUBTITLE: K1nesthetlc imagery Mary:


Mmm-hmm. It's very warm.





And can you feel your body relaxing? Mmm-hmm. Now think about that presentation you have to make. Mmm-hmm. All of a sudden your breathing changed. didn't It? Mary: Mary:

Mary: BUly: Mary:


I feel so relaxed!

Billy: Okay. I--I'm--I thought maybe ifwe explored a couple of ather avenues to assist you with thJs-Okay. -warry and anxiety that you have, It might be useful, Okay.


Mmm-hmm! Billy: Mary:

Billy: Uh-huh? Can you just now think back about that quiet space? (pause) Okay. Mary. Let me ask you. You can open your eyes now. Let me ask you to try this. Mary: Okay. maybe the first

Billy: When you feel worried or concerned about a presentation, thing you can do, as soon as you detect It-Mary: Mmm-hmm. Mmrn-hmrn.

Billy: Urn. You know, I wonder if there was a time In your, urn. life when someone made some expectations of you and it sort of created worry and anxiety and tension, Can you remember back to a time when something like that happened? Mary: Yeah. I remember taking, uh, plano lessons at age eight. And. urn. my mother, you know. minored in music and she was quite a good piano player. and she wanted her daughters to play the piano. And not only did we have to play the plana. but we had to enter contests, piano contests. We had to learn a piece. memorize a piece. enter a contest. And I would be so nelVOUS and upset and warned. ] was just--sometJrnes I'd be hysterical before I'd have to go, uh, to perform. uh, in front of a Judge. B!Ily: Mmm-hmm.

B!lly: l'd like you to try breathing very deeply. Sitting down in a quiet corner. Just relaxing and then taking some deep breaths. Mary: Mrnm-h rnrn.

Mary: It's usually a couple of days before, 1mean, two or three days before I 1lnally-maybe two days before, actually. 'cause I finally say. "OmIgod, I'm gonna do it. This is It. I'd better--I mean, I've gotta do something." I'm gonna have to do this. So then I pull the things out. Mary: Billy: concert Mary: nervous Billy: Playing the plano. Really scary.
1mean, the time before the

Billy: Mary: Bmy: Mary:

Okay. I wonder if you would be willing to try something Well, okay! (small laugh) Depends on what it is. On what it Isl How rtsky Is it? (laugh) We'll seel We'll see! (laugh)

really risky.

When do you think that worry or anxiety began? or the=tne->?

Oh, I was worrted from the minute I knew--I was klnda starting to get the minute 1--1 was practicing "the piece" that I would have to perform. Mmm-hmm.

Mary: And then the closer It got. the more and more I got anxious. You know, that r would have to be in front of an audience. and the Judge sitting there giving a grade. And then I'd be warned that I would forget my piece. Billy: concerned Mary: perform Billy: Mary: Billy: Mary: Mnun. So you were really--the about pleasing others. worry was connected to the. uh, wor--betng

. Billy: All right. The next Urne you're askednyou have tornake a presentation. 1 would l11re you to postpone preparinj! for it until the day before it's due Not two days before not three days But the day before, The n12ht before It's due, In fact. SUBTITLE: Paradoxical Mary: Billy: Wow. Mmm-hmm, All right. Do you think you can do that? I'll try. that directive

Yeah. performance anxiety. I think I was warned and what mother would think, the family. So you really wanted Yeah. Uh-huh, Mmm-hmm.

about how I was gonna

Mary: Btlly:

Well. I'll definitely get anxious about this onel Okay.

to make sure your mom was happy.

All OWL And what I'd like you to do also is to monitor yourself throuiW Mrnm- hmm......Y!m..


Billy: And al--l0 Identify just how you feel, You mlehl eet a lJttle pad and Just Jot dOwn--doesn't have to be anything fancy. but Just notes to yourself Of how you're reeline about thiMS. what your worries are, what your concerns are. and the expertence SUBTITl.E: Encourages Mary to observe her behavior more closely. Mary: Billy: Mary: Billy: Mary: So do a little diary about how--what's Just a little bltty--lIttle diary. happening to me?

Billy: Iwonder I{there's a connection between that experience you had With plannme. uh. prepari~ for presentations. SUBTITLE: Supportive confrontation

Mary: It could be. As-vas I said that word "performance anxiety," I think in some ways. you know. If you're speaking in front of your school or If you're speaking in front of a class or somebady--somethtng like that--you're--you're performing in a way. BUly: Well, it Is performtngl Yes.

Okay, about how're you feellng? And how I'm feeling, and what's going on? Exactly. My feelings. Okay.

Mary: And you're standing up and speaking and It's sort ofthe Same thing like (small laugh) plav1~ the plano when you're eight years old! SUBTITLE: The past Impacts the present Billy: That's right.

Mary: Maybe there's not exactly a judge in the audience gMng you a grade, but in a sense, you know. people are sort of making some evaluations about how you're doing. So it's a little bit like that! Billy: Sure. Sure. Sa this business of--ofbeing what sort of conjures up those--those worries. Mary: Yes. And all those anxieties a--a performer and being judged Is and sweaty palms.

Billy: And the reason I want you to do that Is so you get a full appreciation of the full tntenslty of the worry. Because sometimes the worry Is bigger In our minds than It really is. You know, we make it much larger. Sa it's goad to be able to sort of get in touch With it. And understand how. urn. dangerous. iCyou will, or how overpowering, It really, really Is. Mary: Billy: Mary: Okay. And you might discover that it's not as looming as we think it is. Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm,

and tension and nervousness

Billy: Btlly: Yeah. Okay. Let me--Iet's try another thing. I wonder if, urn, usually--what's the time that usually--the time frame before the presentation--that you finally do It. You finally say. "Okay. enough of this worry and anxiety and-.' you know. When do you actually say. "Now I'm gonna actually do It." ? Mary: BlIIy: Mary:

So will you try that? Yes. I will. Billy. Okay. All right. Great. Then let's get together and--and talk some more.

Thanks so much for your help.

Tape 6: Feedback/Self-Disclosure

TITLE: Feedback/Self-Disclosure Mary lvey with William L. H. Roberts Mary: I would like to share something from our Basic Influencing book. ~ ourselves as others see us. to hear ourselves as others hear us. to be touched as we touch gthers These are the goals gf efIecttye feedback I will demonstrate two skills In this tape. They both Involve sharing yourself with a client. Feedback helps the client discover how others see them and self-disclosure Is sharing your own experience carefully. In using both these skllls, be sure to be brief and check out with your client how the skill Is recelved. (pause) TITLE: Maintaining balance In a complex world. Mary: Billy: Hi, Billy, how are you?

bells and whistles, you know. I have the car phone and the pager and the dtctaphone and all these things. you know. Tapes on book and all that klnda business. you know. to=to sort of ease the--ease it. But It just feels like an awful lot. Especially, urn. I flnd In the evenlng--because I tend to get involved With what I'm domg=and, um, five o'clock, 1t's five thirty. six:o'clock. seven o'clock rolls around and I'm still Involved. And It's an hour and a half homel So If I'm finished at seven o'clock. where I'm accustomed to only being fifteen minutes or twenty minutes or a half hour from horne--whlch Is not bad--



BmY' nan hour and a haJfmeans I don't get horne until elght-th!r1y nine o'clock. and sometimes later Mary: Mmm-hmm Mmm-hmm,

TI1LE: Note encourages often enough to keep verbal client talking. Bmy: And It's really, uh. It's really beginning to wear on me.

I'm fine. How're you doing, Mary?

Mary: Good. Good. Nice to see you. You know, you said you'd had some concerns you'd like to share with me today? Billy: Yeah, I'm--I--I wanted to talk a little bit about, urn, some challenges I'm having with work. It's really not work. per se, but it's just some things around the work. Urn. Sort of a lot that I'm dealing With. Mary: Yeah. You know. Billy, before we begin to dlscuss all that, maybe we should talk about It--what it'slike for you to come here, talking to me, a white European American and Swedish American and-sand, uh, the cultural differences. Is there anything that. urn. I should be aware of to make this a better session? Billy: Urn. well, I appreciate your mentioning It. Urn. I guess even your saying that makes me, uh, feel better because at least you're conscious of It. You know? Mary: I surely am. And I want you to be sure to let me know 1f--IfI'm on track all the way. And If I'm not, we should stop and feel free to say something to me. because I want to learn. too. I want to learn about-sand I wanna be helpful to you In whatever way I can. And that's a very important issue to me. and Ijust want to-just want you to let me know. urn. when we need to move or be In a different track. Billy: Well, good. Good. 1ITLE: Stop tape. How do you react to the dlsclosure ofthls issue? Mary: Okay. well, let's go on. Maybe you can tell me lust a little bIt more about the, uh. concern that you have More of an e.:campleof what's going on. SUBTITLE: Concreteness-seeking specific example

II this working --you ,re such a d You're starting to feel the fatigua ttatYou have thIs responsibJe lob an . Mary.. responsible person an d It's, uh. really won e u uh new posItion.


SUBTITLE:Feedback on posittve assets and strengths But the--the Idea then of. after doing all thls working. extending yourself as much as you can. then you still have to get In your car and drive an hour and a half. And that feels a bit much. ' Billy: Mary: It Is-vtt Is, uh, It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah.

Billy: I also, you know, had the experience that. uh, In the organization that I'm in. uh, and I'm fairly high-placed. you know. highly-placed In the organization-> Mary: Mrnm-hmm.

Billy: --uh. uh, that. uh, I want to somehow be. uh, a model for others in terms of the Idnd of. uh, of the level or the intensity of the work. Urn. And. uh, I find that there have been a couple of times when I've felt fatigued that I declded I'd leave right at flve o'clock. Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: And on--the whole way home. I thought. "Gee. I really--maybe that's not such a good idea." Mary: Mmrn-hmrn. And so you feel sort of tom between staytng there and wanting to be With the family and-sand. uh. I certainly can Identify With that. too, Billy. ~ ago I had a lob where I had to commute and--and uh--through heavy traffic (t was only an hour, But that-that deslre to be home with the family and not to work so bard and yet the desire to be--to do ~Qodon the lob that'sntbat's uh pulls you In both ways until you almost feel tom. SUBTITLE: Self-disclosure and supportive confrontation of major conflict

Billy: Well, uh, (small sigh) the challenge that I'm having Is that I. uh, have just. uh, recently taking--taken on a new posltion-Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: --uh. It's a very responslble role. Uh. But It requlres me to corrunute to the place of business. It's an hour and a half each way. Uh. And of course) have all the

Billy: Mmm. to be responsible-Mary:

Yeah, there ts=there

Is a real conflict, you know, in terms


Mary' .eu your carom Y needed to be th re And so thatUmight 11<cornmun7 , and nowa . ,. u hwh' IllIS WJmdorM ..", Dth to be with --church maybe flmIllx. ph"" Ill'ii You }mowpbase ere it snow tlm e to mem; ontpvoul


Billy: --or in terms oC,urn, uh, my professional responsibilities. The desire to achieve. the very high desire to achieve. And also the real. urn, desire to, urn. make sure that I'm CulflllJng my responsibilities at home and being there and being present. Mary: Bllly: Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm. not worklngl The way I want It to work.


Mmm-bmm. And community And--and morena building closer on uh community.

SUBTITI.E: Confrontation positive strength Billy: Mary: Mmm-hmm. But. urn-Mmm-hmm.

And, uh, it doesn't--It's

TITLE: Portions of session deleted: The session continues Mary: Uh. Billy. what else Is going on in your life as we're talking about these different thingS? Do you want to share anything else with me? Bmy: Mary: Well. I, uh, actually have recently made a lot of changes. Mmm-hmni.

Billy: Well. It's. yeah, It's, you know, I really--my, urn, reugtous convictions very strong. Mary: Mmm-hmm.


Bmy: Urn. and, ch; one of the changes I've made. uh, Is, uh, has to do with the amount of time that I have committed to traveling, urn, in service to my religious community. Mary: Btlly: Mary: BUly: Mary: B1l1y: Mary: Billy: available Mary: Mmm-hmm. Uh. where I Virtually almost every weekend, Mmm-hmm. And after a- -a--a long period of tJme--ten years-Mmm-hmm. I was traveling someplace.

Billy: Uh, and they really sustain me. And I tb1nk--1 think they really help me to-to. uh--to, uh--to do as much as I do. Uh, and one of the things that they--that--my--the teachings. um, have-shave led me to, urn. to, uh, realize and acknowledge Is how--how critical and how Important it Is to really make--ensure--that the family unit is really, really tight. And so al--an the external things that I do, uh, while they're very wonderful. I'd better make sure that I invest a lot in that family unit. Mary: BUly: Mary: religion. Billy: Mary: Mmm-hmm. Very Important And that famlly Is really, really Important to me. to you and-

--and that's the strength and the resource that you draw on. along with your Yeah. Both of them. And they both. uh, come together.

--oC doing that particular

work. uh, which was wonderful work-Billy: Yeah. Yeah. You know. I--as I'm thlnldng about it. Mary. you know. you--uh. you mentioning that helps me to perhaps understand a little bit why, uh--more about why the commute is so frustrating. 'Cause It feels like three hours a day times five days a week is fifteen hours a week. You know, Cor a lot of people. that's a part-time Job! TTILE: Stop Tape: The field has tended to Ignore spiritual Issue, but Is now opening itself to possibilities How do you feel about this topic? TTILE: The session continues with Mary self-disclosing. How do you react?

Ub-huh. --I decided that I would adjust that, so that I would be able to be more to my children-Mmm-hmm.

Billy: --on a weekend. as they're getting into--to an age where they really sort of need me. So I want to be more involved with family llfe and closer to those things. We're a very close famlly; we do a lot of things together. So It's--there's not-at's not that there are problems or difilculties. It's Just I really felt that, uh, there was more. uh, need for me. my presence--physlcal presence. Mary: So you ielt the family needing you at this point and--and-the family needing me. but I needed--I needed to be



Qkay I just guess I'd like to share with YOU that--that ub my relWon and spiritual ,ourney Is very 1mportant to me also. And I brln2 that back tp my famUy and--and ub I see the two sort of Intertwine I'm just WQndertn2 family and sPlr1tuallty fit t02ether--and I'm Just wQndertn2 how that fits with you and what vau think about It.

Bmy: Yeah. And It's notonly there for me as well,

SUBTITLE: Self-disclosure

with check-out


focus to client.

Billy: concerns Mary:

Yeah. 1--1. uh, I really appreciate knowing that you--you share those kinds of and Interests. Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.

Bllly: But It never came up. And I think part of why It never came up was because she did acknowledge It and the option was there. Allen: And if It would have come up. then. at least provide the opening for the dialogue ..... , Mary: Allen: Mary: Yeah. How did you feel bringing it up. Mary?

Billy: And it makes me feell1ke. urn. uh, I'm not alone with that. you know? Urn. That. In fact. really this splrttual Journey. urn. if it's fully mcorporated-vinternalized, you know--in one's--one's life-Mary: Mmm-hmm.

It Ielt-vit felt okay. because I think. if you don't bring it up. It's an--lt's an tssue-vit's something that I might have on my mind and wondertng how he's reacting to me and wondering If I might be saying something wrong so I guess 1--1--1 rather feel better bringing it up In the beginning rather than to have it not talked about (small laugh). Allen: Mmm. Now. a second issue that came up Is the Issue of spirituality ..Uh. The Amer1can Counseling Association has developed a set of spiritual competencies and they say that we really need to be aware of this strength and the Issue of splrttuality In counseling. At the same time, you don't want to take over and move too far with that. In OUT discussion after this tape. there's an interesting discussion about church. uh, or=or the=or the way you use the word church. BIble. Torah. or whether you talk about. uh, symbolism or perhaps the more generic issue of splrltuallty. And. Billy. I thought you had some real Interesting thoughts about that as we talked. Billy: You know. 1--1 think tt's real important. uh, especially In the helping process. that we use generic. uh, generic expressions. And the reason for that Is. that people who we are working with. urn, may have any unique combination of. uh, orientations or expressions or religious traditions. And so if--In my experience. I. you know. if I'm not a Christian and I use Christian. uh--and you use Christian symbolismMary: Billy: Mary: Right. uh, then that can distance me. you knoW. Okay.

Billy: --1t's not a--sort of separate entities. you know? There's family and then there's work and then there's. you know. rellgious beliefs. Uh. But that they're all integrated. And It really makes. uh, one's 11femore fulfilled. more wholesome. And. you+you know. the path is clearer, So it makes=you know. it occurs to me it makes-that=this is why I question or I'm having the conflict about the travel or about the--you know. these dJiIerent-Mary: Billy: Mary: BUly: Mmm-hmm. --kinds of things. because I'm struggling for this kind of-Mmm-hmm. --to make this--this. uh, whole integrated process.

Mary: Maybe you lust need to--to eUm1nate the commute to move closer [)au~h) aDd to. uh. have the family and the splrttual thlne;s closer togethex1 SUBTITLE: Advice as self-disclosure Title: Debriefing: Multicultural Issues

Allen: I've JOined Mary and Billy because there's a lot of things that happen In this short tape. The feedback skill and the self-dJsclosure sk111 have been demonstrated, but there's been some issues for multicultural counseling and spirituality which aren't usually explored. I think it's best to debrief them. You may notice that. uh, Mary started fairly early on with the sharing the idea that here she is. a White woman--even a blond-with an African-American. And. uh, I was wondering what Billy's thoughts were about that (seli-dtsclosurel. And. I notice it wasn't followed up on. And what--what--what your reactions were to it? Billy: Well. I appreciated her, one. acknowledging it in. uh, uh, a non-urn-explosive ldnda way. She didn't make a big to-do about it. Mary:

Billy: You know, um, but there Is a commonness around belief m a--a supreme betng-vyou know-" Billy: So that, urn. you know. uh, my--my concern was that lfyou use expressions that are an indication of one's particular belief system or another. then that can distance people. Mary: Mmm-hmm.

BUly: Urn. And. urn. an Invited me to sort of. uh, if you will--correct or adjust something that she said- Mary: B!1ly: Mary: Right.
--If It felt. urn. Inappropriate.

Bllly: But that if you use more generic expressions. someone who Is an atheist or someone's who's an .. an-van agnostic or someone who Is a believer in any specific belief system. urn. worldwide. can relate to the theme of splrltual1ty and can relate to that journey. and one's. urn. belief in a higher power. etc. Uh. So that. uh, you know. there Isn't a notion that one is better than the other. Mary: Right.


Allen: There's also even the word "religion" that. uh, for some people. is a--is--is a troubling word. So generally speaking. "spirituality" may cause some Issues. [ know,

when I was working with Japan. you have a--a group which really, the--the Shinto tradition is really--they work in a more Earth-centered relationship to the land. Bmy: That's right.

Allen: And. uh, the--notions of the "supreme being" and so forth becomes very, very different. Uh. So we--worklng With--with people who might be different from us, I think It--it's good to follow that line. And use those words ... how did you feel about, uh, those issues, Mary? Mary: Yes, I understand what you're saying. And I think It is Important to use terms that make everybody feel comfortable. And--and "splrttual1ty" and ''higher being" and "beliefs' and terms like this is more--would be more generic than other terms. Allen: Billy: Mary: Allen: Mary: So we'll sign off and let's see if either of you want anything to add to this. Good! 1liked working with you!
I like working with you, too, Billyl

1loved watching the two of you. Okay. Thanks. (tape pauses)




Tape 7

TITLE: Interpretation/Reframe : Changing the Meaning of the Story Norma Gluckstern with Kathryn Bohn

Kathryn: --you know. says, "I'm the teacher. not--I'm not gonna just pupil and come to your

and when he--when he--when he--when he says--snaps and It's a lesson now. Let's learn." I'm like. hello! l've--l've been--l'm become your pupil a=agam, Or I'm not gonnajust become your attention I--you need to interact with me.

Allen: The core of the basic listening sequence, influencing sldlls, and the m1croskills theoretically is: story, strength. re-story. action. And In this next tape we're going to demonstrate changing some of these ideas--not the action tdeas-vta the skill of interpretation. Norma Gluckstern will work with Kathryn alone on listening to her story, finding some strengths. and then moving to the issue of re-storying. We're not going to worry about action at this point. The idea is to find new ways to look at the story. And the skill of interpretation is perhaps the most important of all In restorying.

Norma: What r hear you saytna a little bU is I think you said he's treat1ng you in a different time frame than you're at And that that's not where you are. You're an adult You're not a little girl anymOre. And the other thing I hear is you saying that vau're acting sometimes like a little girl. And that that's frustrating you, too, So that you're-it's--tt's a double bind you're In He's actlng--he's treatlng you like a child and you're responding like a child. SUBTITLE: Summaryof Story I am responding like a chJld.

Kathryn: Yeah. That--that's--that's right on the mark. And I don't want to respond llke a child.

nTLE: "Commg Home"

Norma: Kathryn. the last time we were here you mentioned some of the problems you've had since you've moved back home. And what I wondered is if you wanted to continue that conversation. If there are some issues you'd like to talk about. Kathryn: 1--1 think I do. Urn, I'd been away at school and-sand then working. um.jn another part of the country for awhile. and I'd moved back closer to my folks. Urn. You know. couple-swtthtn a couple of hOUTS. And. uh, 1 was-urn. anticipatlng kind of--uh-you know. mteractmg With them as--as a--as an adult. I mean. I was an adult. 1 was in my, you know, my late twenties and I was looking forward to, you know. going to dinner with them or, you know, Just kind of hanging out with them and interacttng with them. And. urn, Ijust--I have to say I was sort of, urn. shocked, urn. by the sort of the reaction or the welcome. urn. that I received. Norma: What do you mean by that? Shocked by the welcome you received?

Norma: I--I'm going to ask you to do somethi~ that may seem ven difficult foryou. And--and--but could you re-intemret or reframe that story? Rewrite the storv in a more positlye waY? Can you find anything positive that'S going on between you and your


SUBTITLE: Positive Asset Search Kathryn: Well, I think. back home. I've decided I'm an adult. That --that know, and-sand then just Norma: urn, I think what's positive about It is I'm--I've--I have moved too-that I want to--l want to get to know my parents again. That he is taking the time to sort of Interact wtth me and. urn, you be (short pause) an adult, uh, with me. That you're not totally convinced of what you're

I see vau're kinda hesitant

Feedback to, urn .. SUBTITLE: Open question, encourage Kathryn: Kathryn: Well. my dad and 1 used to work in the garden a lot and just, you know, in the yard and do different things. And, urn. 1 wanted to--t said, 'Well, let's go work in the yard." He was so fond of-sand I used to admire him and his knowledge of, you know, the yard and the grass and the trees. And ask him a lot of questions. So I said, you know, "Let's--let's do that!" And we did one day. And I. urn. and it--lt--um--! just wanted to=to sort of be Uke old times. but just sort of work With him and-sand maybe show him my knowledge and what I had learned. And-sand instead it became a lesson! Urn. He-vhe just said. "No. you're not doing it right." And-sand maybe before when I was. you know, sixteen or fifteen. I'd be like. "Okay, how do I do It?' Now I'm like, 'Wait a minute! This is not a lesson. This is just us getting together. hanging out." And 1--1just didn't know how to react to that. Norma: Ah. what I hear you saving is that you're a little frustrated and angry about what's going on with you and your father right now. and the way he's treat~ you. SUBTITLE: Reflection of feeling Kathryn: And I think, while adults don't change that much--I mean. once you sort of go through puberty and become an adult and you're married, you're sort of settled in your ways. And I think for me, there's been a lot of change-Norma: Norma: Oh, okay. Okay. Well. 1--1. 1 want to--Iwant Norma: Take a look. 'Cause this is really a hard task. I mean, you have a lot of sort of negative feelings about this, And for me to ask you to give it a--as they say--as they say in politics-Kathryn: A positive spin.

Norma: --a positive spin. But=but think about It. Maybe think in terms of how he might be th1nk1ng about you and .. and what's gOing on in his mind. As he's treating you this way. Kathryn: I don't think he knows. 1--1-1 think he's-I him. You know, It's been ten years. Norma: Okay. think it's been a long time for

Kathryn: Yeah! 1--1Just, um=I feel that--I mean. In=lnstead of just hanging out and playing together, be treats everything if--as if--as if I was sixteen! Or fifteen! And I'm-he almost like gets up this inner child in me and--

Kathryn: --since 1 was sixteen. And 1--1 don't think--since he wasn't a part of that. not because he wasn't Involved but. you know, you're--you're away at school or you're workl:ng and you--you call your parents. You see them maybe once or twice a year. But you don't, you know, hang out With them. You're not there every day and you're not doing homework every night with them In the house. And It's--I think that--I think he wasn't--he didn't know what to expect. Maybe. Norma: And so In some sense. he's failing back to his past behavior.



Kathryn: --big company. And he's In. you know, in his late fifties. Probably pretty (laugh) settled In hts ways! Uhurn. Certainly, urn-Norma: You're laughing.

Kathryn: May--maybe to what he knows! And he--he's not sure how--how do I say this? This woman. You know? She's a woman. She's not a little girl anymore. What-you know--what? Do I ask her about her boyfriends? I mean, that just seems weird. Maybe. you know, (srnalllaugh) he's not sure and so he-Norma: Good.

Kathryn: Well. I hope he's (small laugh) not settled tn hts ways! (laughl Um. But I mean, l+that's+you know, I mean, he's been=he's been In the commuruty for awhile. He's ltved here for awhile and people know him. He's, you know, well established. Urn. Both tn his profession and--and, I think. In the community. Norma: again? Urn, how do you think he might tell this story of your movtng close to home

Kathryn: --you know. we--we talk about. urn. we talk about stuff that--that he's used to talking about. But--but in a way that doesn't make me feel very adult. Doesn't make me feel Uke I've grown up. 1TTLE: One route toward reframmg is listening to the story and asking the client to descrtbe or restory the situation in new ways. Norma: As you talked about him. where he's coming from. how does that make you (eel? I mean. how mi!ilit you re-frame or rename this story? With what's goine on? Is It anv dIfferent than when you first started to talk? SUB1TI1..E: Reframe by questioning Kathryn: Yeah. I mean. I thlIlk In(Slghl--I'venI've sort of stepped back a little bit and saId well. you mow. there's a lot to dIgest for him Urn, I think that--that maybe he-maybe lust--maybe he lust needs to. you know. we need to both try a little bit urn. And he needs to see where I'm coming from and I need to see where he's coming frOID And maybe I lust need to take a step back and say okay And gradually work up tOn and you know and--an adult conversation. And-SUBTITLE: Kathryn takes a new perspective on the story Norma: Essentially what I hear--IfI--lfI And maybe he hasn't SUB1TI1..E: Paraphrase can label It for vounts that vouve grown,

Kathryn: Wow. Urn. 1 would--I would think that he would--uh--be a little nervous at first. Urn, you know. what's going on, maybe, what's wrong. Why is she moving back home? Maybe, uh, get excited and yet. "hang on out," does this mean you're mOVingIn wtth us again? (small laugh) And, you know, not wanting Gaugh) that to happen. I mean-- And--and maybe, urn, I'm not--you know. 1--1 would hope not too negative but I think a little hesitant. And 1 think not sure. urn. maybe. sure how to--how to Interact wtth me. Norma: Ah, so, said=so you think his response to you if--if 1were to actually, or if you've actually told me this--is there's something that's caustng him to respond to you . tn this way? Kathryn: Norma: Kathryn: Norma: Mmm, you mean like the way he did tn the garden that day? Yeah. If he has those kinds of feelings. Eh--l guess then it's a pretty natural reaction. Oh. Okay.

Kathryn: That--that maybe, urn, maybe I see it--maybe it is natural. that he's-vl have to--maybe I should ask him questions. "well. how do you feel about this?" or maybe-maybe start asking him not just to be Involved In my life. but maybe someway for me to be involved in his life. Nonna: Kathryn: A more sharing relationship. A more shartng relationship maybe and not so much me me me. SUBTITLE: New words frame the situation and goals differently 'Cause It--'cause I guess that's how it was when I was younger. I mean. parents are your parents and they--they--they do everything for you. You know, they feed you, they clothe you (smalllaughl. they pay for everything! And 1 think he's--he's a little-Norma: Is he [shocked?) ...

of Kathryn's strength

Kathryn: (sigh ofreUefl Yeahl Well, yeah! I think that is it, maybe. I mean, that he-he hasn't grown. And--and--and that's not--I mean, that's not really positive, but. urn, I mean, he's stayed the same. I--J--I'm sure. And that I've grown and I think he's had-sort of grabbing trying to catch up with my growth! TITLE: Gathering more data: How does father tell the story? Norma: Kathryn. I'rn-vtf it's all right With you. I'd like you to sort of focus a little bit differently. I'd lfke to hear about your father. Tell me a little bit about him, what he's ltke, where he works. whatever. Kathryn: He's, urn. he's. I thlIlk, in a pretty powerful position. Urn. He's head of an orgaruzauon, urn, a company. A small company, but. you know--

Kathryn: --a little (laugh) afraid maybe that I'm gonna--that's gonna all come back. And I want him to see that, no, I mean, 1--1 make my own Iivtng. I'm-Norma: Ah!

Kathryn: --I'm on my own and. but=but maybe I need to see him in a different llght Maybe I need to see that-Norma: Kathryn: Norma: Maybe you need to help him look at it from another perspective. Yeah. Maybe that--that's Okay. Tl.TI...E: efraIning from Intergenerational R Cultural Perspectives Family and what Ineed to do. Yeah.

Norma: It's interesting in what you said about, uh, fish and guests after three days. Stink or smell. Because my expertence has been that that Is somewhat typical of maybe, uh, of the, uh, more Northern Europeans. And that their expectations is that you cut the boundaries. There's a certain point where you leave home. And you mature. And that's it. And you come back to visit. But you don't come back to settle In. Wbich in some ways ts vexy dUTerent from my bacWound which Is more Mediterranean where if you leave home (small laugh!. people are verv upset. And then when you corne home. they're gracious and they open their arms and almost want to make you a child again. So It's sort of interesting that they're--thev also want to make you a child But It's a different kind ofway. And that it's the same kind ofresentment of. ''well hey I'm an adult but I'm coming horne to }tve"--Is-Is somewhat different from uh Northern European or Southern or Mediterranean Europeans SUBTITLE: Reframe from cultural perspective Kathryn: That's interesting. That's really--(smalllaugh)--I way. Yeah, but I think that's right. Norma: Kathryn' Norma' Kathryn: Norma: U--it's not what you've experienced, Mmm-hmm When I've found myse!fhaving Mmm-hmm, to come closer to home never thought about it that

Norma: A--another way oflooking at this 15--1sreally sort of from a cultural point of view, an ethnic point of view. I wonder what your background Is in terms of your own. uh, family or family of origin. Kathryn: My--I would say I'm eighty percent Swedish, a little bit of English, and little bit of German. Norma: Kathryn: Well, since I'm neither of those. maybe-(small laugh)

I think It's what I've experienced. alSQ.

Norma: --you cculd-help me in--in how would a Swedish family react? Uh, since that seems to be the strongest part of your background. To having someone come back who'd been gone away for years, a number of years had been broken away. You know, cut the bond. Has separated the boundaries. How would they react, do you think. coming back? --of coming back into the fold? Kathryn: I think there's one thing about Swedes, and that is they're very polite. very gracious. um, people. I mean. as my family as--as they would welcome anybody into their home. But. like, that I think though that--like--like fish and guests stink after three days. I mean, you just (small laugh), you, I mean--the--they had done all the nurturing they could! I mean, they've--they've raised me, they've--you know. I--I've become an adult. They've done the best they can. And I think that--that they're--they-they want to see that continue. Um. I think that while they're happy to see me and they want to Interact with me that--that they want to make sure that I'm still on my own. That I'm still growing and--and on my own, living. 1--1 think that-Norma: home? Does this give you an Insight into what may be going on with your returning

And then fighting off my tradition,

SUBTITLE: Self-disclosure

And you're trying to push your tradition the other way. SUBTITI..E: Interpretation Kathryn: Right. I want a little bit of your tradition and not so much of mine (small laugh) and=yeah. that's-vthat's. urn, that is interesting. I--I--yeah. TITLE: Obtainmg behavioral specifics helps us understand and may lead to more effective reframing of client stories Norma: Uh. another way oflooklng at this. that we--X'dlike to try ou t with you, Is . perhaps you could describe to me what was happening when you went out in the garden with your father Ilrst. SUBTITI..E:Concreteness and behavioral specifics

Kathryn: (small laugh) Yeah, it doesl I think about it with (smalliaugh)--I mean, with--with, you know. I mean, that they're--they're extremely gracious and they've helped me. you know, move in, but that they really want to make sure that--that--the growing process of becomtng adult and moving on your own is a process that continues. Not that you revert back to eating every meal with them and, uh, you know, I think that-eh--you know, that's interesting. now that I think about it. They have sort of gone through the separation process of me leaving. I have. All, and I think that--that needs to continue. TITLE: Stop tape. "Corning home- in many Northern European families can be a violation of cultural expectations for separation. How might families from different cultures expertence the same situation?

Kathryn: I think that we were--I thought we were lust having kind of a good time, Uh. sharing something that we liked to do together. And I think for him it was kind of a reverting back to when I was sixteen. I think. for him. And he thought he was going to be teaching me something SUBTITLE: Formal operational, Norma: abstract response

So he--what was his behavior then?

Kathryn: He was. I mean I thlnk--I don't know jf I was--plannlng something I remember, And--and--and he was like. ''No, no DO not like this' Let me teach you

this!" And I was like. "humph!"

IAA9ns are !Ned (small laugh) I don't want to be taul:ht today Orwhatever And 1--1 mean--but 1dldo't say that l--I--I--aod I kick myself for oat saying that 1--1--1I:ot really upset It was like "Wh--wh--what do you meao I'm dolM It wrong? Why are you cr!tIC1z~ me? Why are youuwhy are you Jump~ all oyer my case?" And I mean I just--I got reallY angry that he Just blew up. I mean. 'cause I felt ltke he was blowing up at me for something so petty.



SUBTITLE: Behavioral

specifics of relatlonshtp

Kathryn: Urn. And ask him and say. you know. this is not a lesson to me right now. 1-I just want to kind of work with you in the garden. And. um, and--andJust--and in a very calm voice--and not a very elevated. um, volume. Just say. you know. if we could just work together, that would be great. Urn. Just. you know. not--not--don't look at it as a lessoo and--and me doing it right or wrong. But just let's look at It as just two . people planting flowers. Norma: Kathryn: Now. do you think you could do it? (laugh) Oh, gosh!

Norma: So his behaylo[ was to treat you like teacblni! aod that who-and the coosequences of that. it seems to me what you're saying. is that you I:ot Wry. Irrltated. You were disapPointed. You lust had a lot of reo-you reacted immaturely SUBTITLE: SUIl1IIl3I1'and reflection of feeling Kathryn: Norma: (laugh) In fact_ what did you say to him? SUBTITLE: Search for more specifics Kathryn: Oh, I Just--! don't know. I went off and I said, 'You know, you have no right to do this. I am--thls Is not a lesson. You can't just be a teacher and I be a pupil. You know? I'm an adultl Treat me like one!" And I mean, 1was (small Iaughl=yeah. it's funny, 'Cause I was Uke screaming at him and, like, you know. getting all upset and angry and frustrated and--I don't know if I sort of cried then or what, but--I was like, "Oh, God!" (small laugh) So am I reacting here? Norma: Kathryn: Norma: So if I asked you. was It rational behavior? (laugh) I think notl I think about 1t. No. 1--1mean It really wasn't. And as you think about It, what's your feelings about It?

Norma: Maybe what we need to do iso-iso-the next sesslon--talk about when this happens, how you can do It. It-vtt's a thing called assertive tr--traJning. I think you did some of that in the past. Kathryn: Mrnm-hmm.

Norma: And what would it be like to really assert relationship between your father and yourse!f--w)iiCh relatlonshlp-Kathryn' Mmm-hmm.

Yj'=~~--~=ff: e


Norma' --Into a mature relatlooship oftwo;dUlts But I think that you can brtng it to another


You'll always be his daughter


Yeah. 1--1think that's where I need to be. SUBTITLE: MOVingto behavioral action via the new story or reframe

Norma: Kathryn:

All right. so we'll do that next time you come. Great. All right. Good.

Kathryn: Well, my feelings are that (small pause)--I wanted him to treat me a certain way, but he wasn't used to treating me that way. I mean. I wanted him to treat me like an adult. like he would if it was Just. you mow. doing this with a friend of his. a buddy or. you know, someone else, my mother. And he, urn. instead he. you know, it was llke I was a child again. Norma: behayiors I asked vou a question about your feelin~s. and you're tellio~ me about your So what were you feellna SUBTITLE: Confrontation Kathryn: Norma: Kathryn: I was upset. Okay. I was, urn, I was frustrated. 1--1would-vl would put anger

TITLE: End Interpretation/Reframe


Norma: So how would you change that scenario? If I went back and said you're out there gardening with your father. And he began to tell you what to do. How would you change the scenario? Kathryn: I thJnk I would sort of maybe take a deep breath. I am now.

Tape 8 Vocational Interview TITLE: Five-Stage Interview: Developing a New Vocational Story Allen lvey with Mary Bradford lvey Allen: Vital to the microsktlls framework is the five stage structure of the interview. Willlam Matthews of the University of Massachusetts and I engaged in a conversation some years ago and discovered the necessary and sufficient conditions of an interview that works. We came up with the five stages which are now foundational to Basic Influencing Skills and the Illicroskllls framework, You can complete a whole mtervtew, well structured. just working from these five stages. In this particular tape we're going to remake an interview that Mary and I did a few years ago for the book Intentional Interulewfng and Counseling (Brooks/Cole publisher). One of the things all of us need to be able to do is work on issues of vocation-vocational choice. And the five stage structure of the Interview Is really basic to all interviewing.

Hi, Mary. Nice to see you. How are you today? Mary: Oh, fine. HI, Allen. Nice to see you. (small laugh)

Allen: I was 100k1n!i' your me and I said gee. vou've done a lot of InterestlIW at You've been a ohvs ed teacher and I said hey! I noticed you've i!Othonors and done a lot of stuff With SW1mrnJng Can you tell me a I1ttlebit about that? SUBTITLE: Relationship building. Positive Assets


t~\% u'ye

Mary: Oh, yeah, Ijust love swimming. It's one of my favorite things. And I've done a lot of work wtth water ballet and synchronized swtmmmg in college. I've enjoyed it a lot. I enjoyed teaching girls this, too. Allen: Mary: Allen: And apparently you won some prizes at that? Mmm-hmm. Yeah. It's exciting. Could you tell me just a little bit about one?

First. I first need to establish a reasonable relationship with Mary. SUBITILE: Ra~port and structure The second stage is I need to draw out her concern Qf course as part of that we need to look for the posltiye asset--fincUng strengths--strengths In her stoP' And then we move to what would Mary Uke to have happen (as a result of the session)? S1JB1TI1.,E: efine issue and positive assets D Stage three. Get some specifics and goals "IfYou don't mow where You're going you may end up spmewhere else" SUBTITLE: Define goals The fourth stage Is braJnstormlng and coming up with ideas=new ways of looking at things. And it's in this fourth stage that influencing skills are the most lmportant And this demonstration of vocational counseling InteMew will have a few influenCing skills as well SUBTITLE: Generate alternatives Stage five is lenerallzation waste of tUDe. If you don't take horne what's happened in the interview. it's all a

Mary: Well. it was for our whole group in college, the group of women that worked together for a competition. And it was quite exciting. Because we all worked together very hard and-Allen: Mary: Mmm-hrnm. +and put on a really nice show where we won an award!

Allen: I see that the award was great but I also heard You really liked working with your friends and doing it. Is that right? SUBTITLE: Paraphrase With check-out with focus on award and relationship Mary: Yeah, It was great fun. TITLE: Stage 2: Gathering information and identtfytng assets "What's your concern?" Allen: Well, I guess you're not here to talk about swimming. Uh. What would you like to talk about today. Mary? SUB1ITLE: Open question Mary: Well, Allen, you know I like swtmmmg. Mrnm-hrnm. SUBTITLE: Encourage Mary: And I--you know I've always lileed modern dance but I'm a phvs en teacher. and I really think that this Is not the Tight place for me to be I don't~~Th1~~ hockey and the basketball particularly I mean I always love th Joh ~e but that's not what I have to do all the ttIDe. I have to do these other thiflJiSihit I tn't enjov. I've been doing it for three or four years now--for four years now. And I --I'm fl tin really kind of bored With Jt frankly.

SUBTITI...E:Gerier'allzatfon Allen: So vocational counseling is really structured like a problem-solving interview. And you'll see a lot of--define the problem. generate alternatives, and can we act on the alternatives? Or: hear the client's story. find the strength. develop a new story, then act on the new story. So onto the five stage structure of the interview. (pause) TIlLE: Stage 1: Rapport and Structurtng "Hello"


SUBTl"ILE: Mary's opening story Allen: Bored with it? StJB1TIT.E: Keyword encourage

Urn. So. As we start this. as I do hear that you're In phvs, ed.-Mmm-hmm And you kind of like some of the tbln2s In It.


I heard some of the actlyitles you like.

Mary: Well. you know. It's the same old thing. over and over again. And--and. you know. If I'm not real enthusiastic about certain aspects of It. then It's hard to make the girls enthusiastic. I like parts of It. But lots of the Job. I don't like. Allen: Mmm-bmm.
I sense that you feel a little bit frustrated In where you are rliWt now




SUBTI.TI..E:Reflection of feeling Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen: Yeah,l am. Yeah. It's frustrating (frustrated laugh).

Allen: But I also heard the sense of boredom. And you sound like somethln2--that four years. you'd like to find something else to do. SUBTITLE: Summary Mary: Allen: Right. [don't want .. Is that right? SUBTITLE: Check-out


What else is going on In your life Mary? SUBTITLE: Open question TITlE: What else Is golng on In your life? We recommend the "what else" question to encourage disclosure of other possibly lmportant information.

Mary: =yeah. I don't want to be doing this when I'm much older. I really don't (rueful laughter In voice) want to be doing this the rest of my life. Allen: Mrom-hmm. What have been some or your fantaSies for the--for the future?

SUBTITLE: Open question Mary: Well. you know the parts that I like about the job. I really like talldng to the girls and they seem to come to me and share what they've done over the weekend or talk about their boyfrlends-Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: Well. you know. [have a relationship. uh with a fellow and that's okay too But ['m mostly worried about what I want to do What! want to do with my life and my career, TITLE: Mary's second story Allen: Mary: Mmm-hmm. Because it feels like I'm not really In the right field.

Mary: and !like working with the colleagues. I like the women I work with-and the people. But that's the part that I like. I don't like teaching the skills of basketball or the skills of field hockey or of soccer. It's really not my thing. And I guess It's the relationship that I really kind of like. And. I think I could be pretty helpful to people. Allen: Mill:Y: So you keep talking about kids corning. talking to you with problems ..

Allen: Mmm-hmm. So you are In a relationship But what's really hitting you tight for today really Is what's going on In the lob? SUBTITLE: Paraphrase Mary: Allen: Yes.

that nght?

Allen' "you talked about relatlonsh!p And I noticed "relatlonsh!p" was a word you used Just when you first started talking about swimming You liked the swjmmin~ But the relationship seemed almost as Important as the swimming. M.ary: Y~h. So that word "relationsh!p" Is a rea! kev one for you, SUBTITLE: Summary Mary: Yeah. it really is.

SUBTITLE: Check-out Mary: Allen: That's right.


looking on 1Q some--sornetbln2



Allen: Okay. And what did you think you might like to do With this relationship Issue whlCb seems to be so Important to you? SUBTITLE: Open question Mary: Allen: Well. you know. I think I'd really like to go to school train to be a counselor. Ummm, You'd kinda like to be sitting In this chalI1 SUBTITLE: Interpretation Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen: Right! (small laugh) Uh-huh!
I think I would. I think I would llke to do that.

Mary: Well. really like I said. there's a lot of It that's pretty boring. Teaching exercise class every day and soccer skills and basketball skills and you don't really like it. then you wonder If th.!s Is the place that you should be. You know? Allen: Mary,; So I hear the excitement's In the relationship on the one hand- Mmmhmm. Mmm-hmm. And this has kinda led you to search for .

Allen' And I hear the boredom on the other hand some new directions? SUBTI11.E: Summary of major discrepancy Mary: (small laugh) Allen: Right. Right. Okay.

SUEn]TLE: Encourage

Mary: And there's a teacher-counselor In the school that I rather admired. And it just seems so interesting. the work that she does and-sand. uh, she's kind of been an inspiration to me. She made me think that I would like to do that kind of work. Allen: So you have a teacher-counselor SUBTI11.E: Paraphrase Mary: Yes. she actually--she became a counselor then and-sand, urn. she's been sort of a person that I look up to and admire, and It just sounds like very interesting work which she does every day. She would be working with people and helping them. and I think that would be great. Allen: Okay. Another thing I think we need to look at is what Is your family situation? You sald you were In a relationship. I also saw that you had a couple of children. In the me. that's kind of an Insplration--



Allen: And so you're frustrated where you are now and you'd like to look--Iook at somethinfl in the counselinfl area? SUBTlTI..E:Reflection of feeling. paraphrase Mary: Yeah. I'd really like that.

Allen: Okay. I kind of have the fleneral map I would like to get just a couple more concretes about where you an; tight now. thouflh SUBTITLE: Structuring Mary: Mmm-hmm.


I'd not heard anything about them and what's going on there SUBTITLE: Focus on family story

Allen: I'd like to hear--could you give me a specific example of a time when you really felt kinda high on the job? SUBTITLE:Open question. further search for story strengths Mary: Well. again It had to do with the one thing I like about the job. which Is teaching swimming and putting together a water ballet. Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: Well. you know. they're In school and-sand doing fine and-sum. with Is not really excited about me going back to graduate school. Allen: Uh-huh!

The fellow I'm going

Mary: Not really at all. Not particularly supportive. Because I have a nice. stable job and It'd be disruptive and-sand. you know, a sort of a hassle. Allen: So there's a little bit of hassle !fYou talk about moviDflonto somethln2 else. SUBTITLE: Reflection of feeling Mary: Allen: Mary: RIght. Yeah. Mmm-hmm. And-

. Mary: Urn. And the kids all working together. And that's really about the only (small laugh) thing I really like about the actual work that I do. That was fun. as we developed ideas and created the music. Allen: You know. the word iliat kinda stands up for me Mary ther~~;aet and excitement there but you say 1t was the onlll thing that you reailY7n e. SUBTITI..E: Confrontation that eUjavment

It would be hard! (small laugh) 6


--where are younwhere are your kids on this? SUBTfI1.E: Open question


So ! reallv get the feeling for the moment that that Is. at least. prettY clear. Mrnm-hmm Where you stand In that relationship SUBTITLE: Feedback TITLE:Stage 3: Determining Outcomes "What do you want to have happen?'"

Marx.; Alkn'

Mary: Oh, It's going to be hard, though. You've got kids and there are actMties going on and it's going to be hard. to also do graduate school. Its gonna be a little bit challenging! (small laugh In voice} Allen: M=-h=. So 11 soundsnI almost hear Uke you've kinda made a tentative ~QIl1IIl1tmentto graduate scllool and counsellIll! Is thatn? SUBTITLE: Interpretation leads to restorymg

Mary: Well, I really feel Ijust can't continue doing something that doesn't feel right for me. I want to do something where I feel like I can make a contribution. I need something that would be more challenging and exciting for me, and more fulfilling! Allen: So the feedbac;k I ~Iye you at tbls point Is that you realN come across IS that--verv much--you'd like to move onto something new. I think that's really Important. You come a<;ross like--arn I heating you accurately on this? I'm giving you that type of feedba<;k. SUB1TI1E: Summary with check-out Mary: Well I--l--You Wow urn I would I'm you }mow I'm a l--a little nervous about it It's. you mow. it's a newnlt's a big change. And--and anytime vou do that. that'snthat'snthat's s<;ary. But. urn you mmv I realN would like to. SUBTITI.E: Note several speecb hesitations Allen: Anduyour fliend's name is--7 SUBTITI.E: Closed question Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen: Bo. Bo. Mmm-hmm. And so 80 vb. doesn't quite go along with this? SUBTITLE: Closed question Mary: No, he doesn't.

Okay. Uh. So, let's think for a minute about goals. Uh. m:t~~ld f~el ~~~t~it tLTlle ad been worthwhile to you? What woul h at leasUer todW Uhn SUBTITLE: Open question, restorymg


~::&~ ~m~
u h v~

Mary: Well, you know, you know a lot about vocational counseling and getting people into graduate school. How would you go about doing this. Is this a realistic goal for me to=to think about being a counselor? Is this something that I can do? Allen: So the one thing you'd like to baSically discover Is counseling a realistic picture? SUBTIT1..E:Paraphrase Mary: Allen: Mary: Right. I've got that. And do you think I'm cut out to do this klnda work?

Allen: I do know that the relationship word that you used Is really critical because counseling Is about relationship_ . SUBTITLE: Feedback Mary: And that's what I like best about the work I'm even doing right now.

Allen: Mmm-hrnm. And you come across llke a real caring indMdual who really wants tQ be involved with people. SUBTITLE: Feedback Mary: teachers. I really do. That's the part of the job that I like. With the kids. And I llke the--the

Allen: At the same tlme J hear (pauseJ--on the one hand 80 doesn't On the other hand you do J k1nd of beard you kind of balanCIng yourself <;onslderlng want to do that but whatever happens with that reJatlonshlp--happens. SUBTITLE: Confrontation Mary: Allen: Mary: Perhaps that relationship isn't as Important as-Uh-huh. --me being satisfled in something I'm going to have to do the rest of my life.

Allen: So one thing you'd like to have--a little more vo<;ational Infonnat[on about the process of counseling and graduate school and SO forth. M.ary: Yeah. So--and


if we just

get that far tQday would you be satisfied?

SUBTITLE: Summary, goal setting Mary: That would be great!

Allen: Mary: Allen:


Allen: Mary: Allen:

Frustrated. -vnot particularly happy.

You're going to get me started in a hurry! (smalllaughl We're eolIW to Encoura2t


that as a @al.

And on the-von the other hand. Jfyou could achieve this ideal--

Mans aJ.l.l:.n;

me to start.

Mary: I'd feel better about myself. I'd feel ltke I'm doing something more challenging and interesting. Allen: So we kind of have the real-Mmm-hmm, --and the ideal. here. At the moment. And we also have a concrete!!Oal for this session. SUBTITLE: Confrontation Summary of real and ideal story

Because (we donl know where we're eolng we may end up somewhere else. SUB1TILE: Focus on Mary's central issue

Allen: particular

Mary: Allen:

(small laugh) Yeah! That's TIght!

I want to make the focus on what you want.

M.lwG Alkn.;

We can ch~e our goals as we eo alone. structuring , Mary: SUBTITLE: Information.

Mmm-hmm. TITLE: Stage 4: Exploring alternatives confronting incongruity and

Another piece. though, Is--! find really helpful in vocational work Is please close your eyes for a minute Just irnag1De yourself five years from now In a Job that you might like. And just think allow whatever comes across in Nur mind. SUBTITLE: Imagery directive "What is an Ideal story?" Mary: (pause) Well. the first thing that comes across In my mind. is I am sitting in an office. talking to people. And I'm not outside In the field dealing with forty kids. I'm In an office talking maybe to one student or maybe a group of students. Maybe even a group of students. talking to them about colleges. going to school. going Into college, or jobs. That would be neat. Allen: How are you feeling as you see that 1mage? SUBTITLE: Open question Mary: Allen: Mary: Mmml (pause) Feel calm. Feel!ng-Mmm-hrnm, --relaxed. Feeling. hmm, that feels pretty right to me.

Allen: Some little bit of information. So I think I might Just toss the ball for vau for just a minute and ask vou-what occurs to you? What might you Me to ask me to ask me about the counseling field? SUBTITLE: Structuring. Open question

Mary: Well. how do you go about getting Into a program? I mean. what's required? What kind of time? Allen: Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen: Mmm-hmm. How do you know what a good program would be that would be suitable for me.
I see.

What aspect of counseling should I look into? So as I hear you right now. you're really sort of totally at the start, SUBTITLE: Paraphrase

Allen: Mmrn-hmm. Okay. Thank you Macr, I get a contrast from your earlier conversation because r heard the boredom. ! also sensed some kind of tension as you talked. M~ Mmm-hmm.

And you know we have the University here In town and there's a state coIle~ it's a little cheaper. Mary; Mmrn-hmm~ nuh twenty miles down the road And both of them have really !!Oodcounseling One's handy: the other will Involve a little more distance Mmrn-hmm Mmm-hmm.

AUeD' So basically on the one hand where NU are now gives you a little feeling of more comfort Is that what would you say? On the one hand where you are nown? SUBTITLE: Confrontation Mary: I'm frustrated and--

programs Mary' Allen: programs

And, uh, I can arrange for vau to have some written information abQut both ofthQse


MJl.O!,;. SUBTITLE: Information-giving Allen: And. uh I--we could go llirou@ a whole raft of thine:; And ctght now. rm lust going to go through a few questions and--questlons I'm gOnna ask are going to be about. uh your college grades uh your other :weclal Interests I've heard your--relaUonship and so forth And I'm also gotW to talk a little bit about uh. the financIal thing And we're going to go through all of these issues. That'll be the next thing well do.

--to thIs area. It--yoy know. it's not there. See-Feels I1kesomething I have to do on my own. SUBTITLE: Mary considers restorylng



SUB1TILE: Structuring TITI.E: Portion deleted. Interview continues with focus on occupational information and planning leading to action on a new possible story TInE: The Interview turns to personal Issues

Allen: Yeah I think what we might like to do Is something we someUmes caU (pause) story-telling particularly from a gender perspectlye I hear some rnale/femaleissues In here And--could you sort of pretend for a minute that you're Bo? And sort oneil the story from his peTSllective How rni!Wthe be looking at you? And pretend you're Eo for a minute and tell me the story from his perspectlye. SUBTITLE:Gender focus, Directive for role play concreUzing the story Mary: Well, here's this very nice woman whose an excellent teacher. who gets great reviews, who the kids like. And a wonderful school system. Why bother to change or do something different? I mean, why upset the apple cart? Wby make more work [or yourself? You've got kids to raise and ---you know. You mow, for me to be wtth-vl think he wants me to be with him. Urn. Allen: And so you--so, Bo. you'd really like to be with Mary more and not have her lose her. attention while she goes to school--I'm pretending you're Eo. SUBTITLE:Allen imagines Be's story Mary: Allen: Mary: Right. I'm counseling Bo now. Right. Yeah. Takes too much time. Too much focus away from him.

Allen: But as part of th at wbUe we were talking you did a couple of times mention your relat10nshm with Bo rm a little confused, I heard you say he wasn't a factor; Mary' MmmhmrJL

Allen' And then I beard that you .. part of this Is I actually heard vou say you thought of going and visiting the stat$: unlversltv But the things that he said sort of kept you from goiN And I wonder if you could share a little bit more. SUB1TTI..E:Summary and confrontation

Mary: He's discouraged me because of the security of the job I'm In, and not to sort of ruin that. And, you know, he was not really supportive or encouraging. Actually, he thought-maybe I should do something totally different! You want to do something different? Go Into business! Don't do something like this. You don't have to go to graduate school. Do something different, you know? Go Into business. I mean, I don't know where he was coming from! Allen: Mmm. And yet (pause)--! kinda get some mixed feelings about It. I get a feeling that you rely on Bo a 101 for support. MSliY: Mmm-hrnm. And then I hear you on the other hand saying .. SUBTI1LE: Summary .confrontatton. it klnda feels kinda scrambled sometimes talking. Is that a fair word to use? Scrambled? SUBTITLE: Reframe of story Mary: but, um-Allen: That's right. Yeah. I would say. urn. you know. it's nice to have a supportrve person. Mmm-hmm.

Allen: Okay. Let's come back to you. How do you feel about the idea that Eo wants the focus on him? As we lust did a little bit of a sort of Gestalt type of exercise? SUBTI1LE: Open question Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen: It feels kind of selfish. It feels like. urn, that's not-vtt's not really gonna work. Mmm-hmm. You know, that relationship isn't gonna work. Mmm-hrnm. Particularly if he can't be supportive in this area that I thlnkls


Mary: And, urn, you mow. important.

Allen: So I hear you saying that the two oryOY are seeing thini!S djfferently--the relationship might not work and yet relationshlp .. on the other hand relationships are pretty important to you So. SUBTITLE: Confrontation




Yeah, but that relationship

won't work for me, The Qther relationships

will work.

Allen: WelL that's kind of general. What one thing stood out for you as I talked about. ub, the counsellni and thtrn!s vou needed to do? SUBTITLE: Open question Mary: Well,it gave me some encouragement. You said that 1 seemed to Uke relationships. Arid that was one of the critical things, So it gave me some confidence to think that I probably could really actually do this because I'm good and relatlonships are Important to me and that's one of the critical things in counseling. JLWD right from the start where you talked about relationship Allen: So that t h eme Is s 0 beini tmportant In YQurwQrk with swinuning,

SUB1TfI.E: Mary Is generating a new story line Allen: Ah-ha, So you're a Uttle farther aloD2"-Maybe there's somebody else.

Allen: --In that role-played discussion with Bo than I klnda thou~t you were listening to YOUrself Earlier I heard you saying that you really needed his support. and relationship as you moved out into something new And now I hear you corning from a dUIerent place-- so I get a Uttle bit confused about where you are at this moment SUBTITLE: Confrontation Mary: difficult. Allen: Well, I (laugh) --you know, you always feel a little confused--and change Is always


Yeah. That's right. the col1e~ relationshIps

Allen' And we talked about YQurrelationships with the teachers with the kids. MJl..!Y,; Y~

Mary: And um to leave something that's comfortable is gonna be pretty hard But yet If you feel like you want to grow yourself and do something different you sometimes Just have to take a risk And taking a risk is dUDcult. SUBTITLE: Mary changes on the Confrontation Impact Scale as she 'explores a new story Allen:
I sense a lot gfstrength

Mlm;, M.m:.'

And the idea of using counseling as a way to use some ofyour relationship skills--

and that strikes you as central. SUBTITLE: Summary

In Yourself as you say that

I hear the determ1Datlon.

Mary: Allen: Mary:

Yeah. Now the real crucial Issue is. of course. action. Mmm-hmm We've done a lot of

SUBTITLE: Reinforce strengths that you like Bo but It sounds like you're going to make your own declsiQD Even though occasionally he appears now and then. SUBTITLE: Summary Mary: I think S(J. I have--I--I've thought about it. And 1--1feelllke It's time. You know, 1 can't do It later. It's gotta be time now. Now's th~ time. Not later. TITLE: Stage 5: Generalization 'Will you do it?" Allen: and so--so MaD' I've Jsjnda gone through sQme possibilities for going on In counseling and transfer of learning

Allen' andI think we need to get a spec illc commitment to do somethln~ talking


[small la ugh)

Allen' a variety of things can be done as you start thinking about this cQunsellng fleld. You need to really go and Interview at these universities, SUBTITLE: Confrontation Mary: Mmm-hmm. seeking action


Allen: Of an the things that r talked about. what sort of stood out for you from this sQrt of discussiQn about gettin51more information. and follow-up in different places? SUB1TILE: Open question Mary: Well, I think it was helpful to get some specific Information, because you have to-you have to start someplace and--and with good information, someone telling you=gtvmg me some direction. It really. helps you to focus on--on what needs to be done.

Allen: You really need tQtalk to counselors and learn a little bit more about what they do. because - as I listen to you. you seem to have kind of a general idea of the field. And I think you need be aware that nQt evel)'thing in counseling Is Interesting. SUBTITLE: Feedback, Advice Mary: Allen: So-Therenthere's a"-can be a boredom factor there sometimes. too.




Allen: So you've never lets you see kids

wt to watch

out for a counseliry! lob that just sits you down and--and SometImes they only let you do schedullrU.!,

Allen; --as we mqve toward the end, Is--I heard relationship, relationship. relationship, heard that you hadn't been getting into lookl~ in the counseling field--



SUBTITLE: InformatIonl Advice Mary: Allen: Mary: So it would be a good Idea to see counselors besides the one person I know?

Allen' --yh partly because yoy've allowed yourself (-Is that r12ht WQrd?)--to let So make deteun1natlons to you. And, you haven't really said much about It. You're not reallY the person who shows much In the way of anger or frustratlon--yuu did use the word "frustration," SUBTITLE:Summary, focus on keyword

Yeah. Interview other counselors and see what they do. Mary: Allen:
Mmro-hmm. I get the feeJ.!m of frustration

Allen: So, could we contract then for YOU to go out and see somebody, Also Visit wduate school. Which university do you think you'd like to visit first? SUBTITLE: Aiming for concrete action and generalization



SUBTITLE:Feedback Mary:

Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen:

I think I'd like to go to the state university. I think that would be great.

Allen: Ah. But I gQtthe sense you moved alo~ as yuu began to $IV, "Qh, rm going to have to focus OD me and my needs"

I think that would be closer and. you know, I think I'd like to do that. And we've found= Is that a pretty good program? It's a mat
DTQf,pJWl I went there.


Mmm-hmm. And I really do want to follow up and look at this counseling area more. SUBITILE: Summary of developing change in Mary's story

Mary: S.UBTITLE: Self-disclosure Allen: Mary: Allen: (small laugh) Mary: And r thInk that you would really do well. Allen: SUBTITLE: Encourage Mary: Ah. I'd like to-vl think we've kinda got a good vocational plan. Allen: Mary: Allen: today?
Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. And more. Is that kind of a--? That's right. That's rtght. Okay. Yeah. Now In this whole Interview-Mmm-hmm,


Okay. Well. are there any other Issues that you want to bring up

Allen: --uh, what has stood out for you of all the things that we've talked about? Just any one thing. . SUB1TILE: Open question TITLE:What one thing stands out for you from this session? - Often a valuable way to end your conversation. Mary: Well. as I said before, relationship. And then I think the real commitment I have to doing something different. and to move into counseling. And move out of--of a field where I'm not as happy. Into something right. 1 really expect to feel better about myself.

No, I think that's about it.

Mmm-hrom. I'm ready to make some changes In my career. All. So what I've beard In this lnterview so faro-and I'd Ilke to do one final thing--






Allen: Okay. we've got Just about two or three minutes left. And. we'll set up another appointment with the secretcuy on the way out. But. It's really Important that some of the things that we do In here to ensure Utat change is fol!owed through on

Ma.oL; Alli:.n;.

Mmm-hmm. And so. what do you plan to do next week? )Vell. I hope to get the Itterature from you Yeah I'll get



the literature


SUBTITLE: Generalization Mary: Right I'd like to explore the programs. I'm probably pretty committed to the university. I'd like to get over there and talk to some people there about the program. And I think I'd like to talk to some counselors In the field besides this one friend of mine. You know, to get different perspecUves-Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: --for what It's like. And what aspect of counseling-vis It school counseling? Is it mental health counseling? What kind of counseling do I want to do? And find out what's required and even the details, Do we have to send transcripts or what? What exactly do you have to do? Fill out applications? What are the steps that have to be followed to make all this happen? Allen: And so rather"-you me really--feel real1v good-really sound like you're really ready to move on this self-disclosure It makes

SUBTITLE: Paraphrase, Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen: Mary: Allen: Mary: I believe so. --to hear that. I think. Thank. you!

It'd be--I think you'd make a great counselor.

I know you'll make a great counselor! (srnal! laugh)


We']) look forward to seeing you next week and see how it goes. Thanks, Allen, I appreciate TITLE: End Five-Stage Interview It.


Tape ~ Assertiveness

TITLE: .Assertiveness Training: Developing an Action Story for Sexual Harrassment Norma Gluckstern with Kathryn Bohn

Kathryn: Well. urn. it Was a situation a couple of weeks ago now, and I was. urn. not confronted, If you will, but I was at the elevator watt~ to. uh. go for a run. And my boss lust hapDened to be walklne- by and stopped and noticed I waS In shorts, and certainlY that was different than office att1n: rdnhe said. 'Wow. what !reat lee-syou have' Urn, they're lust so long and strong and lean and--well I wish my e-irlfrlend had--could have lee-s like that" TITLE: Kathryn's story

TITLE: Thls Is a follow-up from the Basic Listening Sequence Demonstration The Ftve-stage Interview adapted to assertiveness training Is presented In a brief demonstration

TITLE: Stage 1: Rapport and Structuring: "Hello Norma: Kathryn, 1 received a call from Dr. Ivey and he told me that you were coming here for some assertiveness training. to the women's center. He brtef=brtefed me a little bit on the fact that you've made a decision not to take any legal action against your boss but would rather be able to talk to him about what he'd done and how you felt about It. And so maybe r can give you a little bit of the background of one of the things that we're going to do here today, is role-play. I just want to know if you're comfortable. if you even know what role-playing means. Kathryn: I'd think it'd be helpful if you would explain It just a little bit more for me,

And I just was like. "Oh, well, you know, 1--1guess. you know. but well, you know. I try to keep In shape", very, like almost m.aking me feel kind of self-conscious. All of a sudden. like, you know. And then I apologized quickly for being In this attire. you know. I said. 'Well. you know. I'm don't normally=I wouldn't be like dressed like this," "No, you look great! I just love It!"you know. and just kept on going on. And. urn. I--I--IJust--and-and-sand talked about the detail .. And talked about--I mean. he was with a client there as well, And I felt another male=another gentleman. And I just felt really like what If this other gentleman. you know. In a situatton=what if I'm In a meeting with him next week? And all he's going to think about Is what this guy said about my legs. I'm not going to have any sense of self or-vor I'm not going to feel empowered to be who I am, Where I'm going to be. I I you ye:c::apologetic, Norma: So I--what I hearvou saying Is h on on;fe;;jonausm feltawaY You wouldn't Made you feel almost small. And that It too your pr comment on how he looked In a suit Kathryn: No!


Norma' And that made you feel!M that YOU weren't going to be as effective. actually, In your work And the other part Is that you really are anm, SUBTITLE: Reflection of feeling. confrontation Kathryn: 1-1think I am. I think because tt-v-maybe because I hadn't said anything, urn, you know, as of yet. I've decided not to take legal action but=but because [ haven't said anything and because I feel he shouldn't=he shouldn't be doing that. You know? He shouldn't be saying those things to me, Norma: Ah, one thing I wanted to ask you is. how do you feel about, ah, not 1~ lee-a!action but actually beine- able to--to confront him I think on the issue How does that make you feel? Are yOUn? SUBTITLE: Open question

Norma: Well. role-playlng--I'm going to at sometime either play the part of your boss or I may play your part, Kathryn: Okay,

Norma: And I'm going to ask you to do the. like. sort of actually it's kind of experiencing rather thanjust talking about the--the action. Kathryn: Okay. Good. 1TJLE: For demonstration purposes. Stage 1 has been made deliberately brief. Be sure you develop a working relationship with your client before moving on to Stage 2 TITLE: Stage 2: Gathering information. defining the problem, and identifying assets "What's your concern?" Norrna: But before [ do that. I wonder if you might give me a little bit of background about exactly what happened and why we're at this point.

Kathryn: Well, I feel very, urn, I mean. I almost feel-vl feel strong about It. Urn. I feel good about the decision, Urn, r feel that if. urn=I think it's okay to take legal action and I think It's right in some situations. But my sltuatlon-vl really need to gain Inner strength about myself and=and learn to work with him again. and In the future, And-and by doing that, I need to-vl need to talk to him and I need to be strong about myself. First, before anything. I mean. who knows. maybe down the line right now. I need some work on how I interact with him and=and-vand finding strength In myself to go on with this. Norma: all right Then the first thing we're e-olngto do--and I thlnk it mlght help and it will help me as well too--iS sort of role-play Kathryn: Okay.

Norma: And what J thought I would like to do. If It's comfortable with you is 111roleplay your boss.

Trn.E: Role-play concretizes the story

Kathryn: Okay.

Kathryn: Um, God. ! mean. Talk about flashback. Urn. Well. first of all yOu play a good John! (small lau2h) Urn. But. 1mean, evervthlng from that dav waS--was--was-just came I1ght back I mean yeah. the situation with the cUent and wtth-wtth conttnuln2 to cOJDIIlenton my legs to--l0 bt1n@12 his \Urlfriend I mean Ilust--oh! 1--1 don't know. SUBlTl1.E: The story takes on immediacy 1TI1E: Stage 3: Determining Outcomes "What do you want to have happen?"

Norma: And, uh, what you--what we're really tIying to do Is that--how you're going to react. And. uh, and that's really the first step. So it'll be behavior and how are you going to react and all when I--I'm playing your boss. Kathryn: Norma: Kathryn: Okay, Uh, what's his name, by the way? What's his name? (short pause) John.

Norma: Well. let me hear with you what J was observing. and maybe this Is the first step in assertiveness training-Kathryn: Mmm-h!Dm.

Norma: Okay, then I'm sort of--I'mJohn. Is there something that you might tell me about John that might help me role-play more realistically? Kathryn: Urn, he's--well, I mean, I can=I think he's--he's very opinionated. Urn, urn, very strong-willed. He's very knowledgeable, very bright. very-overy intellectual. And sometimes. urn, often disengaging. Norma: Kathryn, I'm going to role-play John now. Okay. what I want you to do Is--Is pretty much act the way you would normally In this interaction that you had with him on the elevator. So we're on the elevator now and 1say, wow. Kathryn. you look pretty good! Uh. Those are some legs you have! Kathryn: Yup. (bold soundJng) Well, you know. 1try to work out quite a bit. Urn. And. you know. stay In shape. It's important to me. Norma: Well, l just Wish my girlfriend had legs like that. Uh. Just really--something else! Hey. and by the way, you--you know Bill. He's one of your clients. Isn't he? Aren't those great legs? Kathryn: Urn. yeah, llke I sald. I mean. It's--It's Important for me too-to, urn. you know. stay healthy, I-you know. I--you know. I keep In everything in moderation. though. and--andjus1 um you kn0w-SUBTITLE: Note speech hesitations and nonverbals

Norma: Is that When I started talklng the first thing you did is you were !QQW down, You never once looked at me, There was absolutely no eye contact. And that almQst llke you were shrlnk1ng, I could see yQUshrtnkln2-Kathryn: (small laugh)


Norma: --I could see shrtoking--! COuld see YOushrtnldng In that uh elevator The other th!rJi J watched iso-maybe you weren't conscious of this--but it was almost like you were pul~ your dress down, You were rubbing your hands on--on YQurlegs as If YOuwere hying to hide SUBTrILE: Feedback on the concrete story And so one of the thin2s I think Is really very Important--a couple--!s that you be2in--1f we're 20in2 to be assertive as--not only as women. as men, but men I think have an easier time One Is eye contact Kathrvn' Uh-huh,

Norma' You see,:! can look at you, !f--if! look down--well what--how I look when I'm lookln2 down. (pause) Kathrvn' Little, kind of like maybe like urn you know. like a little child Like, embarrassed SUB1TILE: Behavioral Instruction Norma: toward a new story

Norma: You know, on Friday we have that day that you don't have to come all dressed up. Come looking like that when you come on the job instead of wearing those slacks that you wear, or the jeans. I think you're always wearing jeans. aren't you? Kathryn: Well. you know, I mean, It Is kind of Fall weather now. but--but. urn, yeah, I don't--no, I mean, I don't--I mean, I don't know. I mean. J Ukejeans. I--I'm comfortable in them, You know. my ofilce Is kinda--kinda cool a Uttle bit these days. 1TTLE: Role plays clarify stories and client behavior Is observed directly Norma:

Very good (snaps fingers) Very, very good SUB1TILE: Encourage, positive strength

Kathryn: Norma: Kathryn:

Urn. You know, Like a little girl. Even llke that better. "Like a little girl." Mmm-hmm.

QkaY Kathryn let's talk about how you're feeling right now! (small laugh)
SUIl1TILE: Important to focus on feelings first Norma: Okay. So one of the first things is the eye contact The other is also how you phvslcally hold yourself J mean. thls--th!s sort of--In--in--In communicating It's not on!y--I1's ylsual It's also DQnverbal

Kathryn: Norma'

Mmm-hmm. So one Ofyour non-verbals SUBTITLE: Behavioral is that I'm you know sort of Uke this

1TILE: Kathryn has just summarized

her behavioral goals for a new story:.


It takes longer in a real sessionthe client needs to Internalize goals to ensure behavioral transfer. 1TILE: Let us listen to Kathryn's Intemallzed goals again.

And kind of--how does that look when I'm pulling my

StJl3TI11,E: Open question to involve client


down like that?


Kathryn: that 1-Okay. Urn. WelL maybe it's something-rm--rm bringing him some UJO('k

Kathryn: Conscious of something, l1ke--like or--or--or self-conscious about something. That something's--I mean, I don't know--I don't know (small laugh). I don't thJnk it's bad, though. I mean, what--what ts- Nonna: What I think you're--I think one of those thlm~s that--that about being very self-conscious. S~E: Feedback you're worried


Okay. Kathryn: +urn, bringing you some work to show you that rve~rve done some work for you and want you--have you take a look at it. And, urn. fm Just talking to you and rm showing you things and rm--rm looking at you. urn, I, urn, my hands are not down at my body here. but maybe dowrt at my side. Or maybe theY'reJust--theY're--there's-theY're a l1t:t1e stronger looking. Urn. Urn. theY're not--uJ1--touching my clothing or around U:and conscious of what rm wearing or how rm looking.

And so you sbould be somewhat COnscious of how you're sitting how your hands are are they relaxed? And so I think these are two Important things SUB1TlLE: Kathryn: Nonna: Okay. Uh, let's sort of take a breather now and kind of digest things. Behavioral Instruction

Nonna: That's vety good but wha--what was interestlnl! was you're aboyt coming Into the office and bnnglng him some work. And I'm talking about cOlniI1i in the office and talking to him about what happened with your legs And so how are you going to go about doing that? We've got the eye contact. We've got the--the. uh. nODverbals fairly comfortable How are you golng--what are you going to say to blm? SUBTITLE: Goals are pushed a bit farther TITI..E: Stage 4: ExplOring alternatives confronting incongruity and

1TI1..E: Stage 3 Continued: Identifying goals for anew story after a short break Nonna: Okay, Katluyn. [think that you we did have a good ... talk about the nonverbals. And how you're gomg to come into--what I'd like to do is talk about how you're going to come into the office. I've identified a couple of things for you. Let me see you you can-show you role-play. Kathryn: So, I'm=I'm myself.

'"What are we going to do about It?" Kathryn: 1--1 think I need to say, you know, "John. can I have a few minutes of your time? Urn. I need to have a conversation with you." Um. And, you know, 1--1 suspect he'll--I--you know, I hope he'll say, "Yes," you know, ''Please sit down." Urn. Although I don't know Maybe I will close the door Urn Urn, And I'll sit down and--and I'm going to think about it--I'm going to sit back a little bit and--and I'm gOnTIanI think I'm gonna act l1ke I care but at the same time. I'm not right In there--wUh my shoulders back. Show1ng--show1ng I1ttJe--a little strength. maybe? Is that--? SUB1TILE: Clear, behavioral goals vital for story action Norma: Well, one of the things that I heard when you first started, Is you said, "John, can I have a little bit of your time?" But that-vis that what you really want. is a little bit of his Ume? What--what might be a more assertive or way ofverbalJz1ng what you're saying? Kathryn: "John, we need to talk about something. Okay?" (laugh I sigh of reUef1) Urn. "John, we need to talk about something, and I think it would only be right if we do it right now. And if not right now. urn. let's figure out a time when 11'sgood for both of us." Norma: Well, you know, I'm sort of busy now. And, uh, you know,is it that Important that you need to talk to me? What's this about? I mean, we have no work to do right now.

Norma: Now you're coming in; you're yourself and you're coming in the office. II'm sitting behind my desk. Kathryn: Nanna: Kathryn: that I. Nanna: Okay. Andyou'reJohn. Yeah. I'm John. Okay. Urn. Well. maybe It's something I'm.. I'm bringing him some work Okay.

Kathryn: .. urn. brmgtng you some work to show you that I've.. I've done some work for you and want you--have you take a look at It. And, urn, I'm just talking to you and I'm showing you things and l'm--l'm looking at you. urn. I, urn, my hands are not down at my body here, but maybe down at my side. Or maybe they're just they're=there's they're a Uttle stronger looking. Urn. Urn. they're not .. uh touching my clothing or around it and conscious of what I'm wearmg or how I'm looking.

Kathryn: Important Norma:

Urn. It is important. to you.

Urn. It's important to me. Urn. And I think it should be

1TI1E: It does not always happen this easlly. but the structure and method remaIn the same. Often several practice role plays are required.

What do you mean. "Important to me?" 1TI1E: Stage 5: Generalization and transfer of Learning "Can you take the new story home?" Norma: If you could--Ifyou can sustain what--the way you've reacted both verbally. non-verbally. and. uh, I think you can deal with John. Uh, what we need to be prepared for is--is--is whether you're going to be able to sustain this kind of. um, reaction in--in the real world (snaps fingers). And before we go out-sand I think one of the thJngs we might want to do is have another session. Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Kathryn: Urn. J want to talk and (pause), well--Xwant to talk about an incident that bappened a couplena couple of days aflo. And Xwas--wenwe were-owe were talking urn. 1was !WIngto be taklng a run And uh we were waitlnfl for the elevators. And YOU you )g1ow. you made a comment about how I looked And he says 'yeah you looked mat So what? What's the bi dear?" And maybe that's what you would have said But. you gldn't xou--you'd !ZoneInto detaD about my lellS and--and X just don't think that's--that ~proDrtate. Um. In or out of the office. Ever. Inl don't know. I don't think It's Slppropriate. Is that something you feel the same about? SUB1TI'LE: Practicing the new story Norma: Well I certainly think that you're d01n1fa floodJob of your yerbal1zinfl 'Cause that Is certatnly much to the point, Inl reallv felt that you did a flood Job. SUBTITLE: POSitive feedback Now, what you're going to have to contend with--and maybe we can't really go into--If I reject this. Or I become--what happens if I become defens!ye when you talk to me? Kathryn: Noona: Kathryn: I think (Sigh!. um--

Norma: And sort of reflect on how you came across. Which really did a superb job! Kathryn: Oh, God! (sigh of relief)

vexy good. I mean. you

Norma: And It--it does reflect, I think, one of the things that AI told me, is that you had a mother that was a very good role model and was able to take care of herself and stand up for herself-Kathryn: Mmm-hmm. --and still gtve--and still be warm and giving. but on the same hand being in Mmm-hmm.


are you


to handle that? Norma: control. Kathryn:

(pause) SUBTITLE: Confrontlve open question

Norma: Well. I don't understand why you're so upset about that, Kathryn. I mean, I just--uh--well, you've got=youve got good legs. What am I gonna do? Great legs! So you have good legs? You're just too sensitive. you know. It's very typical of women. being sensitive, you know, all this sexual harassment stuff going on. Kathryn: Well U 15 sexual harassment John I mean. how can you make a comment about my lees, my flood looks ((.. If It's not that? I mean what other definition would you put on U? SUB1:rT1.E:Story becomes action Norma: Well. most women like that! I mean, I thought you'd kmda like that.

Norma: And I liked what I saw. And I'd like to have one more session with YOU before we launch you-. Kathryn: Norma: Kathryn: Norma: Kathryn: Norma: Yeah! I'd---work! I think that's good, though, 1--1think that would be good. But I-How do you feel right now? I feel good! You feel good?

Kathryn: Look, llmow how I feel. I know how I look. Urn. There's enough SOCietal things out there that are teJl1ngme how I should look. Why do I need someone with whom I work with, uh, With whom I. you know. Interact With, whom I have to interact with in a very professional setting. making me feel conscious or being conscious about my legs? Why is that important to you? Why is it important to enter that conversation into the workplace? Norma: Well, [would say. Kathryn--I'm--I'm out of--I'm not John! Norma. now. Kathryn: I knowl (small laugh) (small laugh) I'm

Kathryn: I feel just like I--like I--like my back is straight and my--I'm--my--my chest is high and I feel really good that--that--that I can do this. But I also realize that. yeah. it Is a very non-confrontational session. Urn. That you are sitting here with me in your--in--and you're not John. And I--and 1--1do need that practice. Norma: But I think you needed that practice and I do think that one of the things is-you didn't come across as being aggressive. And I think that's one of the things that most of us as women worry-are we going across aggressive? But you came out assertive, sure of yourself. and in control. I liked what I saw. Kathryn: Okay. Sounds good. Thanks. I hope it works again. (pause) TITLE: End Assertiveness Training

Tape 10

Allen: 1TILE: Teaching Microskills to Clients: Tra1n:lng as Treatment Norma Gluckstern with Allen Ivey Nonna: Nonna'

Mmm-hmm. And one way we get out of ourselves Is maybe to look at another person Mmm-hrnm So one of the first things ls for YOU to do. ls look at me. SUBTITLE: Directive


Norma: AI. we've been doing these tapes-at's hard to believe-vsince 1974. And since this may be our last tape, what do you think we ought to do with our finale? Allen: Allen: First of all. thank those people out there for listening to us. What we're going to do In this one Is focus on teaching other people the skills of interviewing. Now. we're not ma.k1ng them Interviewers. But we're really 100kJngat how you can through --a quick. short Interviewing strategy--teach somebody else attending behavior. I find I use 1t again and again as a therapeutic adjunct. If Bruce can pan over to me here for a moment. uh, I'lljust start to tell you a brief story. Back In literally 196&, I was working with this college student that was depressed, He :!ald '1 don't have any frtends: And so on the spot I did informal training In attending behaVior Eye contact forward lean and so forth. And 10and behold he went back and be came back and said be'd found some Wends So many of these skills we're working on in here can be very useful as quick short strategies to teach people some useful lIkills. So I'd like 10 think about the whole idea of teaching skills In counse~ and tberapy;. SUBTITLE: Training as treatment Please note that skill teaching does not move as fast as this demonstration. Norma: You look pretty down. Could you talk a little bit about what's happening? Norma:

Mmm-hmm. And you did! You observed. SUBTITLE: Reinforce even small positives

Now one of the things I want lsmaybe you can--coroe on back, I'm losing you 'Cause you're--when you do that it means you're gettlWl back Into yourself Now SUBTITLE: Holding client focus externally can be difficult Allen: Yeah and I noti ce d that I breath a little freer when I'm up like this SUBTITLE: Look fOT body changes Norma: And now what I'd like you to do Is sort of look at me and think about something you Wght like to ask me. Sometblng you might like to know about me. SUBTITLE: Directive Allen: Urn. (pause) How old are you? You know that I've been fifty-holding for the (siiWl

Allen: Well yeah I just feel ldnda Uke there':!--mmrn--(pausel (slghl--klnda barrased inside and just fee! really crummy I mean thln@ are so bad and uh I--you know, I--my family doesn't, you know, (pause) doesn't listen to me, And I've got so many llTQblemsand !sigh) I lust don't feel like I can (Pause) do much. SUBTITLE: Depressed clients focus lnternally on themselves

Norma: Now that's a good question! last twenty years' (jaugh) Allen: Oh.

SUBTITLE:Expect slow starts! Norma: I used--what made you smile when I said that? SUBTI1LE: Reinforce positives Allen: Oh, dear. Really=you're a klnda funny person at times, even though I do feel pretty sad! Uh. Norma: Allen: Well-So what--you see the ba:!lc point is that--(pause}--(stghl-The thlng-I'm thinking about myself too much, SUBTITLE:Allen gets the point

Norma: AI. I wonder Ifyou'd llke--ldnd of look at me, and that might help you. One of the things Is that=that might bring you out a little bit Is paying attention to=just look at someone else. How do you feel when you look at me? Allert: Hmrn. (s:ighl Wel! I still feel down, but. uh I--you know I do notice that ;muve ~ot a--a brigbt. uh [pause) . uh shirt on. SUBTITLE: Focus moves slightly external Norma: Allen: Okay. Nouna: And. you know-Norma: One ofthe things that--that Is--\o help you thlnk about somethlng else !;!es!des\/OUrself and that's one of the things that we're going to try to do this afternoon, ~ help you maybe get out o(yourself


Norma: attending Allen: Norma: Allen:

And what I think I want to by to do is sort of teach you some of what we call skills. Mmm-hmm. Or active listening Mmm-hmm. sk111s.

But that has, in fact. created for me a--a good feellng peop--people feel about me. And so I as a therapist don't really wony too much about what my theory--what Ireally worry about is how can I con--how do I l1sten? How do I attend? How do I ask the right kind of questions and paraphrase? And sometimes that's all I need. Sometimes then I have to go onto the influenctng skills., because you really do, then. need to help your, uh, clients sort out. You get them moving. But tt's--but 1t's--what is most 1mportant from my perspective Is how we communJcate. Because that's what I call the three' V's: how we visually look at someboW. how we vocally $lung. and how verbally we SQung. SUB'IITLE: Three V's .of attending Allen: Hmm. And one of the things I really liked in your work is when you got out and trained peer volunteers basically the same way people are going In this class. Norma: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: And one oUhe reasons we do that Is to help you eet out of yourself. lfyou're concentrattrn! oil how I feel then how are you @lne to think about how you feel? And so aver the next few weeks we're 20~ to work on that Concentratlne on how somebody else feels. And you do that by eye contact. by listening to their voice. and by what they say. And so I think that's what we're going to do. Well tIy it. It's not genua be easy.


Ah It wQll't hurt

Won't hurt generalization to Allen: And you were the first person--I think you were the first person--you're the first person, certainly, to demonstrate that peer counselors could change what happens in the lives of their clients. Norma: Okay.

SUBTI1l.E: Emphasize real hfe

TITLE: Debriefing the demonstration Allen: And basically this is what I did in the--in the hospital. I've done It for years. And believe it or not--and it would take a longer tJrne and I'd often get Videotapes and patients would see themselves moving back and forth. . Norma: Mmm-hmm. Allen: Research is the first that anybody'd done. And basically took people through the same type of training that people in the class are--are doing. Norma: Absolutely. And, uh, it was--it was very rewarding for them as it was for us, in the fact that this was one of the first opportunlties to look at whether this was Viable. Yeah. Allen: So one thlru! I would like to say as we close 1s think about yourself as you teach your skills. One. 'in the interview with, uh. normal clients. kind ofwatch whiifs going on. More severely distressed also can benefit from this. And flnal!Y~hlnk~ut the Idea of \l"oiM out arig tralnlM peer volunteers community volunteers lIste Skills themselves. The counselor as a teacher of skillS SUB1ITLE: Tra1n1ng at treatment I'll give you the final word ... Norma: Allen: SUBTITLE: Teach skills to peers and volunteers And so as we wind up, Norma, if you could sort of tell them about some of your own experience In training groups using these skills. Norma: Well, I think my interest in communication came really because of AI. Uh, I had been inundated with theoretical aspects of--of counsellng. Uh. And then I wrote an article which said It really didn't matter (small Iaugh) what theory it was. What really mattered was the relationship that you as a counselor could establish with your client. And that's when I met AI. And what I find is that he taught me how to communicate. And that he taught me how to communicate as a counselor and later, I communicated as just a person. I find that those skills that I use as a counselor, I use more of the lIstenlng skills than I do the Influencing skills. No, I think you did It well. And thank you for listerung to our tapes. Thanks, Norma.

Allen: And just treatment in attending behaVior and open Questions were enou2h to eet Datients who'd been in the hospital literally for twenty years. dut. And. uh. it's gulte wnazin2. uh. that this particular simple social skill isn't used more with depression. I gonl claim It's a cure-all but I go say It's one of those lmportant pieces of counsellne anA therapy. Ah. Teachine people skills. SUBTITLE: Iraln!ng as treatment


other p!ece--and you've certainly done a lot with that--would like these people to 1al}S: about is that you dig some wonderful work In 1raln!ne communltv volunteers in 1hese S}s:!lls Ang we hope--YOu know. a lot of people out 1here are eolng to be doim peoole--golIli trainlne of peer counselors peer volun1eers ang so forth

TITLE: End Teaching Mlcroskills