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Oneness Versus Trinity Conversations What you are about to read are the actual conversations or letters between

Oneness adherents and trinitarians. May they bless you in Jesus' name. A) On Matthew 28:19 About Matthew 28:19. Is it your contention that Matthew misquoted Jesus? Does baptizing in the name of Jesus mean by his authority? Didn't He say in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? B) Point of Departure Doesn't accounting for all three- God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, lend credibility to Matt. 28:19? Are you aware of where this idea of "Trinity" originated before being introduced into the Christian faith by pagan-philosopher-Christians? C) The Trinity is evil Is the Trinity evil? Was there a separation in persons concerning the sacrifice Christ made? What about the prophesies of Jesus? Is Oneness consistent with all the passages talking about different personalities? Shouldn't I accept the Trinity on faith, the same as creation? D) Why any Distinction If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all identical, one and the same, then why is there any such distinction in the Bible at all? Why not just say "God" or "Jesus" everywhere? And what about places in which these three elements seem to be acting independently, such as at Jesus' baptism (Matthew 3:16,17)? Jesus is there in the flesh, and He SEES the "spirit of God" descending like a dove, and then a voice comes from HEAVEN, saying, "This is my beloved son, in whom I am wellpleased." Now, was Jesus seeing and hearing Himself? Was He referring to Himself as His own son? And was he well pleased with himself? I am not getting this from some pagan source, I'm simply reading the Bible- aren't I? E) Why different Manifestations

I was NOT attempting to say that one God would be unable to appear in three different manifestations if he wished. I don't understand, however, WHY he would do such a thing? If God is simultaneously all three, was He then, just "putting on a show" so to speak, for the human witnesses? Is there any part of Jesus which is not a part of God? If so, then what is this other part? Just the body? How can the body alone have lamented the separation from God? F) Different Persons in the body of Christ If a group of Christians, like a body, becomes "one in Christ" are they not, none-the-less separate people? When a man and woman marry, they become "one flesh". Are they not still two people? How on earth do you contend that these confusing issues in the Bible are to be sorted out by the powers of men? What is the problem with baptism in the titles? What are the VERY REAL evils of the Trinity doctrine? Are Trinitarians the offspring of murderers? Are Trinitarians called liars by God's word? Does the Trinitarian doctrine nullify the commandment of God? Does the Trinitarian doctrine cause God's people to commit spiritual whoredom? Does the Trinity doctrine corrupt the simplicity that is in Christ through the subtilty of Satan? Are Trinitarians reprobate, deceivers, and anti-Christ? Is there any evil, scripturally, in lifting up the name of Jesus Christ above all names? G) Scriptural Definitions Can the Oneness doctrine be described through scriptural quotes alone? Do Trinitarians preach "another Christ"? H) His Commandment Doesn't there seem to be plenty of Biblical evidence that God is Three distinct persons and yet is also One? What about John 1:1? Why did Jesus differentiate between Himself and the Father, for example John 8:26-27?

How about Eph. 3:9, etc.? Who did Jesus pray to in the garden of Gethsemene? When Jesus was 13 did he not rebuke his parents saying. " I am about my FATHER'S business" Are we not supposed to worship the Father, Believe in the Son and receive the Holy Spirit? I) Definition of Oneness Perhaps you can explain the definition of the term 'Oneness Believer' for me? What does the expression "Latter Rain" from Joel mean? The Contents About Matthew 28:19 ((Is it your contention that Matthew misquoted Jesus ?)) Yes, I believe it to be a misquote or change due to the fact that nobody (no apostle) but Matthew writes the Great Commission in that manner. There are some scholars that have offered some evidence that it was a later interpolation. However, even so as it is written God foreknew the result and provided enough Scriptures and evidence for all to believe and use the only saving and commanded name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember that this is only one Scripture out of a multitude that trinitarians twist to use in their baptismal formula. In essence, they are no different than the Mormons who baptize for the dead by misquoting Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:29) and use one Scripture out of context (as do the trinitarians by using only Matthew 28:19 to justify their deeds). However, the writing of the Scripture as it now stands will be analyzed. Why do I preach and follow baptism exclusively in Jesus' name? First- Notice some of the words Jesus uses- "All power is given unto ME... go ye therefore... in THE name of..." Jesus did not say all power is given "unto the three of us." It would not make sense to say, "All power is given unto ME, therefore go and baptize in the name of me and two other people." Second, Jesus said "in THE (singular) name." So we must ask ourselves "What is THE name?" What is the name of the Father? "Jesus...lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, Father... I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world... And I have declared unto them thy name..." -John 17:1,6,26. "I am come in my Father's name..." -John 5:43.

"...The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me..." -John 10:25. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called...the Everlasting Father..." -Isaiah 9:6. See also Zech.14:9. What is the name of the Holy Ghost? Jesus said "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name..." -John 14:26. "The mystery which hath been hid... but now is made manifest... is Christ in you..." -Colossians 1:26-27. "Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you..." -1 Corinthians 6:19. "Now the Lord is that Spirit..." -2 Corinthians 3:17. "...The Spirit of Jesus Christ" -Philippians 1:19. "For as the body is one... so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body... and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" -1 Cor.12:12-13. What is the name above every name? "...A name which is above every name:... the name of Jesus..." -Philippians 2:9-11. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" -Acts 4:12. "And whatsoever ye do in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus" -Colossians 3:17. ((It seems to me that if Jesus said it - He meant it.)) I agree. It also seems to me that the apostles felt the same way. Which is reason number three. The apostles NEVER ONCE in the Bible, nor recorded history, EVER baptized while invoking the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Without exception, they ALWAYS baptized using some form of "the Lord Jesus Christ." That alone, if nothing else, should settle the question"...Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them... then OPENED HE THEIR UNDERSTANDING, THAT THEY MIGHT UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer... And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name..."!!! Luke 24:36,45-46. "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and CONFIRMING THE WORD with signs following" -Mark 16:20. "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -John 17:20.

Does baptizing in the name of Jesus mean by His authority? ((Baptizing in the name of Jesus means by his authority.)) This is purely a tradition of man which is not new to me. I challenge anyone to produce scripture for this statement. Number four, then- There are three very specific PURPOSES for being baptized INTO the name of Jesus, and none of them have anything to do with "by His authority." Nor do those purposes have anything to do with any "name" of the Father, or the Holy Ghost if that name is not JesusAccording to the scriptures, why are we baptized? 1. Remission of Sins- "It behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead... And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations" -Luke 24:47. ("Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." -Acts 2:38). "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." -Acts 22:16. 2. To Put on Jesus Christ- "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" -Galatians 3:26-27 3. Salvation- "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. But he that believeth not shall be damned" -Mark 16:16. ("Be it known unto you all...the name of Jesus Christ... This is the stone...which is become the head... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -Acts 4:1012. "God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein... souls were saved by water. The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) -1 Peter 3:20-21. ("By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house..." -Hebrews 11:7). Didn't Jesus say in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? ((If He said in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost- why the problem?)) If the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus, and we are commanded to have faith in that name, the problem is hearing the commandment to baptize in THE NAME and then to use the titles. It's like getting a check from work signed by your boss. Does he sign the check- "The Boss," or does he sign the check with his name? Will the bank cash it if it says "The Boss" if they know the boss' name is Joe Bossmanova? "All power is given unto me at the job site, and at the bank. Therefore, go and cash your check in the name of the boss, and of the person whose name is on the bank account, and of the guy who handed you the check." So why do people assume these titles must mean three separate persons? It is because certain individuals in history didn't realize that Jesus wasn't ONLY the Son,

but He is also THE BOSS MAN- THE FATHER. THE GREAT I AM, THE FIRST AND THE LAST! You see, some people don't really believe ALL power is in Jesus' name. They don't believe that whatsoever they do should be done in the name of Jesus. And unfortunately, they've taught a lot of people to do as their man made traditions dictate. "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE Lord..." - Mark 12:29. "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel (Jesus!), and (Israel's) redeemer the LORD of hosts (Jesus is the only Redeemer); I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me (Jesus) there is no God" -Isaiah 44:6. "...I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST: I AM HE THAT LIVETH, AND WAS DEAD (Jesus); and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen" Revelation 1:17-18. "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM" John 8:58 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM..., ye shall die in your sins" -John 8:24. Point of Departure ((Our Point of Departure seems to be the existence of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Accounting for all three lends credibility to Matt. 28:19 . Am I reading correctly ?)) Interesting that you should use the phrase "POINT OF DEPARTURE" in reference to your belief in three Gods as compared to belief in the Oneness of God in Christ Jesus... First off, the phrases "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" are not biblical phrases. They are additions to the word of God that are warned against in the Bible. Pro 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Rev 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words (logos- words, thoughts, ideas) of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" So, you believe in a Trinity of Gods. You're not alone. In case you're not aware of some of those who do, allow me to introduce you to a segment of the family tree of your spiritual ancestry... :-) "The Holy Trinity- the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity... The question as to how to reconcile the encounter with God in this threefold figure (The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit) with faith in **THE ONENESS OF GOD, which WAS THE JEWS' AND CHRISTIANS' CHARACTERISTIC MARK OF DISTINCTION** over against paganism, agitated the piety of ancient Christendom in the deepest way... Christ as the Logos,

UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF NEOPLATONIC PHILOSOPHY, BECAME the subject of a speculative theology... This question was answered through the Neoplatonic metaphysics of being... In Neoplatonic philosophy both the nous and the idea of the world are designated the hypostases (essences, or natures) of the transcendent God. Christian theology took the Neoplatonic metaphysics of substance as well as its doctrine of hypostases as THE DEPARTURE POINT FOR INTERPRETING THE RELATIONSHIP of the 'Father' to the 'Son' in terms of the Neoplatonic hypostases doctrine... The Neoplatonic concept of substance... was foreign to the New Testament itself... The dispute on the basis of the metaphysics of substance... LED TO CONCEPTS THAT HAVE NO FOUNDATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT." -Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, 1984, Vol. 4, page 485. "It is a well confirmed historical fact that beginning in about 130 A.D. many of the Church Fathers- the Apologists- were converts from paganism and trained pagan philosophers. These included Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165), Tatian (ca. 200) and Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 160-200). Indeed their knowledge of the Old Testament came through their readings of the PHILOSOPHER Philo. Tertullian EXPLICITLY EMPLOYED written works of PAGAN PHILOSOPHERS in support of his Christian philosophy (De Test. Animae I). Such fathers as Justin Martyr (Apol. I, 4, 5, 7, 20) and Athenagoras (ca. 177) (Supplic. 5, 6), in order to defend Christianity, stated that THEY WERE FOLLOWING SOME OF THE PRACTICES ADVOCATED BY THE BEST OF THE PAGAN PHILOSOPHERS. Clement of Alexandria (ca. 150-215) actually undertook to create a new Christian philosophy he termed the 'true philosophy' (Strom. II, 11)." - Robert A. Hermann, "Oneness, The Trinity, And Logic", pg 18. William B. Chalfant, "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pg 116-117: 'Indeed, Numenius of Apamea (fl. c. 175 A.D.), a Syrian pagan philosopher, and one of great influence upon the Alexandrian Trinitarians, BOASTED THAT HE HAD GONE BACK 'TO the fountainhead of PLATO, SOCRATES AND PYTHAGORAS, to the ancient traditions of the Brahmins, Magi, Egyptians and Jews, AND HAD RESTORED to the schools the forgotten doctrine of THREE GODS'. Bigg calls Numenius the founder (along with the Catholic Clement of Alexandria) of Neo-Platonism. (Chalfant here quotes Charles Bigg, from "The Christian Platonists of Alexandria" Oxford at Clarendon Press, 1913, page 251-252.) "...The rejection of Modalism (oneness) and the recognition of Christ as the Logos forced upon the West the necessity of rising FROM FAITH TO A PHILOSOPHICAL AND, IN FACT, A DISTINCTIVELY NEOPLATONIC DOGMATIC." -Adolph Harnack, "History of Dogma 3" as quoted by William B. Chalfant, in "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pgs. 121-122. "...AUGUSTINE found his ultimate demonstration of the TRINITY IN PAGAN PHILOSOPHY... like Origen... based his reasoning on the metaphysics of PLATO, WHO DECLARED THAT MAN IS A TRICHOTOMY consisting of body, mind, soul. Using this as A POINT OF DEPARTURE, Augustine found it a reflection of the trinal unity of the godhead." -William B. Chalfant, quoting Larson, in "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pg 123. "It is not difficult to understand why his opponents asserted that Augustine had never

ceased to be a Manichee. HIS SYSTEM IS IN TRUTH THAT OF THE GNOSTICS, the ancestors of the Manichees." William B. Chalfant, "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pg 124 (Chalfant here quotes Charles Bigg, from "The Christian Platonists of Alexandria" Oxford at Clarendon Press, 1913, page 289.) "Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)- 'The deity stands in lonely self-contemplation outside the world... his intellect (nous) is the only thing through which He stands in immediate contact with it...' Plato (428-328 B.C.)- (taught that gods, by definition) 'are exalted above pleasure and pain, and are untouched of all evils.'... THUS THE TRINITARIANS MADE A FATHER, WHO WAS IMPASSABLE (i.e. incapable of suffering or feeling pain), the first person, and then a second person (whom they styled the Logos, Mind, or nous), who was passable... WHAT THE TRINITARIANS WERE SAYING WAS THAT... THEY DID NOT BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST TO BE THE ALMIGHTY GOD." The above as quoted by William B. Chalfant, in "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pg. 122. Are you aware of where this idea of "Trinity" originated before being introduced into the Christian faith by pagan-philosopher-Christians? "The thing that most people do not realize is that THE IDEA OF TRINITY WAS CENTRAL TO MITHRA WORSHIP. It (Trinity) was taught in the oldest Chaldean, Egyptian, and Mithraitic schools. The Chaldean Sun-god, Mithra, was called 'Triple,' and the Trinitarian idea of the Chaldeans was a doctrine of the Akkadians, who themselves belonged to a race which was the first to conceive a metaphysical trinity." -Blavatsky, vol. 2 sec.1 page 46, as quoted from Three Persons- from the Bible? Or Babylon, by Thomas Weisser, page 26. "The Trinity doctrine... traces it's history to a rebellious extremist named Tertullian... And it is not improbable that the development of the doctrine of THE TRINITY, WHICH FORMED NO PART OF THE ORIGINAL JEWISH CHRISTIANITY, may be traced to Egyptian influence; as the whole of the OLDER EGYPTIAN THEOLOGY WAS PERMEATED WITH THE IDEA OF TRIPLE DIVINITY, as seen by both in the triads of gods which the various cities worshipped, and in the threefold names, representing three differing aspects of the same personality, under which each god might be addressed." -Joseph Crafton Milne, "A History of Egypt, pg 155. Vol. 5. as quoted in After The Way Called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, pg 21. "The Cappodicians, theologians who reconciled the faith of Athanasius with the current philosophy, and apprehended it abstractly, did not retain his teaching pure and simple... They boldly characterized the PLURALITY OF HYPOSTASES, E.G., AS A PHASE OF TRUTH PRESERVED IN GREEK POLYTHEISM" -Adolf von Harnack, "History of Dogma", pg 142-143. "It is a solution BY HARMONIZATION, an attempt to COMBINE, as Gregory of Nyssa characterizes it, THE MONOTHEISM OF THE JEWS AND THE POLYTHEISM OF THE GREEKS. THE METHOD OF HARMONIZATION USED BY THEM WAS TO THIN DOWN THE JEWISH MONOTHEISM AS A CONCESSION TO GREEK POLYTHEISM." -Wolfson, Harry A. "The Philosophy of the Church Fathers", pg 578-579, as quoted in After The Way Called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, page 32.

"In the Trimurti, Brahma... The Lord God, though one without a second, assumes the three forms respectively of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva... though three in form, are one entity... It may, however be noted that, whereas THE TRINITY IS PRESENTED IN SCHOLASTIC PHILOSOPHY AS A MYSTERY, IT IS A FUNDAMENTAL DEFINITION OF HINDU RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY!" -Edward Rice, Eastern Definitions, pg 387. as quoted in After The Way Called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, Page 34. "Trimurti... the Hindu Trinity of gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, conceived as an inseparable unity..." Webster's Dictionary. "THE ANCIENT BABYLONIANS, just as the modern Romans, RECOGNIZED IN WORDS THE UNITY of the Godhead; and, while worshipping innumerable minor deities... they distinctly acknowledged that there was One infinite and Almighty Creator, supreme over all... IN THE UNITY OF THAT ONE ONLY GOD OF THE BABYLONIANS, THERE WERE THREE PERSONS, and to symbolize that doctrine of the Trinity, they employed... the equilateral triangle... just as is well known the Romish Church does at this day... THE RECOGNITION OF A TRINITY WAS UNIVERSAL IN ALL THE ANCIENT NATIONS OF THE WORLD... The triune emblem of the supreme Assyrian divinity shows clearly... though blasphemously, the unity of Father, Seed, or Son, and the Holy Ghost... Will anyone after this say that the... church must still be called Christian, because it holds the doctrine of the Trinity? So did the Pagan Babylonians, so did the Egyptians, so do the Hindus at this hour..." -The Two Babylons, chapter 2, by Rev. A. Hislop. Were you aware that the doctrine of the Trinity is BY NO MEANS a distinctive feature of certain "Christian" faiths? Were you aware that ALL TRINITARIAN "Christians" MUST trace their roots, NOT directly to Christ and the apostles, but to pagan philosophers who compromised strict Biblical monotheism with pagan Trinitarianism? Surely you are aware of the scriptures warning God's people of defining Him by the doctrines, and philosophies of man? Deuteronomy 6:14 "Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you..." "And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words... BEWARE lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD bodily. And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised... Buried with Him in baptism... through faith in the operation of God..." -Colossians 2:4- 3:11. "...Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols (falsehoods). Amen" -1 John 5:20-21. "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth the a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, SAYING, LET US GO AFTER OTHER GODS, WHICH THOU HAST NOT KNOWN, AND LET US SERVE THEM; THOU SHALT NOT HEARKEN UNTO THE WORDS OF THAT

PROPHET, OR THAT DREAMER OF DREAMS: FOR THE LORD YOUR GOD PROVETH YOU, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul... If thy brother... or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; NAMELY, OF THE *GODS* OF THE PEOPLE WHICH ARE ROUND ABOUT YOU, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; THOU SHALT NOT CONSENT UNTO HIM, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him..." -Deuteronomy 13:1-2. So, I have to agree with you. Separating the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost into three separate persons (which the Bible does not do) IS DEFINITELY A DEPARTURE POINT from a PURELY scriptural interpretation, which history also confirms. Remember, you still haven't given me a scripturally stated "purpose" for being baptized in the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Therefore, what profit is it? Or where in scripture is there a single COMMANDMENT to believe that God is a Trinity of separate persons? Let alone the very first commandment of allMark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, THE FIRST OF ALL THE COMMANDMENTS IS, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord AND my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas... THOU HAST BELIEVED..." Is the Trinity Evil? ((First, a question about the evilness of the Trinity doctrine. How so ?)) The evil of the Trinity can be seen in the fruit it has born since it's introduction into the church (circa 325 A.D.). Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Secondly, there can be no unity of the faith under a Trinity doctrine. This is due to the fact that there is no definition of the Trinity in scripture. 1 Cor. 11:18 "I hear THAT THERE BE DIVISIONS among you... 19 THERE MUST BE ALSO HERESIES among you..." Thirdly, the Trinity doctrine must ADD TO the Bible. Proverbs 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." All of the following words and/or phrases are not found in scripture, but some at least are REQUIRED in order to even begin to formulate the Trinity doctrineTrinity, Holy Trinity, Divine Trinity, Triune, Three-in-one, Three-of-one, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, Separate Persons, Separate Egos, Separate Individuals, Divine Plurality, Divine Individuality, Divine Unity, Mystery Above Reason, etc.

Think about this. Before pagan philosophy merged with Christianity, the above Trinitarian words and phrases WERE NOT USED OR KNOWN by the original church. If a person believes the Bible is complete (2 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture is given... 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all...") then they should reject the Trinity doctrine on the simple fact of it's being extra-Biblical, and therefore non-scriptural! I'm not making this up. Trinitarians admit these facts. "The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is NOT A BIBLICAL DOCTRINE... It is the product of theological reflection upon the problem... The ecclesiastical doctrine of the Trinity is not only the product of genuine Biblical thought, it is also THE PRODUCT OF PHILOSOPHICAL SPECULATION, which is REMOTE FROM THE BIBLE." -The Christian Doctrine of God, by Emil Brunner. "When one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century... From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention. In a sense this is true... The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title 'the Trinitarian dogma'." -The New Catholic Encyclopedia. "The Bible does not explain to us how the three Persons are one God." -Essential Christianity, by Dr. Walter Martin, Regal Book. Fourth and most importantly Jesus said- John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins." 2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." Preaching that Jesus is only the second member of the Trinity is to redefine and belittle Jesus and be worshipping a false (idolatrous) Christ. There is no God higher, and no other saviour than Jesus Christ Himself, the Great I AM. Was there a separation in persons concerning the sacrifice Christ made? ((This question concerns the sacrifice Christ made... If there is one personage there is no separation.)) This is another example of "philosophizing." The scripture does not teach that "God" or "God-the-Son" died. It was the humanity only of Christ that died"For since by man came death, BY MAN came also the resurrection of the dead" 1 Corinthians 15:21.

"Wherefore when He cometh into the world, He saith... A BODY hast thou prepared me... We are sanctified THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY of Jesus Christ... THIS MAN... offered one sacrifice for sins... For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" Hebrews 10:5-14.p Here's some scriptural descriptions of Jesus1 Timothy 3:16 "...GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." It is amazing to me that some people claim to understand and accept that Jesus was fully God and fully man, but when the man is seen doing something only a man can do, i.e. die, this "humanity" is "philosophized" as a "Separate Person" from God-the Eternal-Spirit who cannot die. When Jesus died, it is no controversy that He took upon Him the sins of the world (1 Pet. 2:24). The above scriptures from 1 Cor. and Heb. SPECIFICALLY say it was the HUMANITY that died, NOT Christ's deity (the One God). The reason Deity had to forsake the humanity is because God cannot dwell where there is sinI.e.- Isaiah 59:1 "Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE from you, that he will not hear." What about the prophesies of Jesus? ((Then there are the prophesies of Jesus all the way back to Isaiah, Ezekiel,etc.)) Romans 4:17 "...God... calleth those things WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH they were." Acts 13:32 "And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that THE PROMISE WHICH WAS MADE unto the fathers, 33 GOD HATH FULFILLED THE SAME UNTO US their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee." Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born THIS DAY in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." Just as the purpose for "the Son," had a definite beginning, He also has an ending- 1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." So, if Jesus is a "Separate Person" from God the Father, how come He had a certain day in which He was begotten, and a time when He will be brought under subjection? But, when scripture is brought to bear, and we see that Christ is both God AND man, we see it is Christ's humanity that was begotten on a certain day, and His humanity that will be brought into subjection. Otherwise, Jesus, if He is a "Separate Person" is not the eternal One He claims to be in Revelation 1:8, 17-18.

Is Oneness consistent with all the passages talking about different personalities? ((Oneness seems inconsistent with all passages talking about different personalities. John 3:16, Matt 28:18 (who gave Christ the authority); Matt 27:46 (separation); Jn 5:31-32 (witness)..)) Again my first response is- SHOW ME SCRIPTURE THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THESE ARE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES! I cannot stress that statement strong enough. You say it "seems" inconsistent with all passages but THERE ARE NO STATEMENTS IN THE BIBLE SPECIFICALLY SAYING THAT THE FATHER SON AND HOLY GHOST ARE SEPARATE PERSONS. (Please forgive me, I'm not shouting, just emphasizing, OK?) One of my favorite examples is prophecy. Which of the manifestations or "Separate Persons" by your reckoning, gives the gift/calling of prophecy? "...God set... in the church... prophets..." -1 Corinthians 12:18,28. "...Christ... gave gifts unto men... He... IS THE SAME ALSO THAT... GAVE SOME... PROPHETS..." -Ephesians 4:7-11. "For to one is given BY THE SPIRIT... PROPHECY... But all these worketh that ONE AND THE SELFSAME Spirit..." -1 Corinthians 12:8-11. "God is a Spirit..." -John 4:24. "Now the Lord is that Spirit..." -2 Corinthians 3:17. "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all" -1 Corinthians 12:4-6. You see there. No separation of persons is mentioned here or elsewhere in the Bible. One must begin philosophizing outside of Biblical revelation in order to conceive of a separation of persons in the Godhead. If you were to rely STRICTLY ON BIBLICALLY STATED DEFINITIONS, the above scriptures typify what you would come up with. If you were born on an island, and had never heard the words Trinity, or three persons, but were determined to rely solely on scripture, you would not think in terms of Trinity or three persons because the Bible has so adamantly ingrained- GOD IS ONE! The only DIFFERENCES offered in scripture are differences in administrations, operations, and manifestations. But never persons. Shouldn't I accept the Trinity on faith, the same as creation? ((I have to take the physical aspects of this on faith- same as creation.)) Wait a minute, no you don't! The Bible specifically tells us to believe in the creation by faith. Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Where does the Bible specifically say to believe that the Godhead is three persons? Mark 12:29 "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD." That's a commandment of God, not a tradition, and not a philosophy! The Lord OUR GOD IS ONE Lord. Why don't you consider believing that "on faith same as creation"? Why any Distinction? ((If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all identical, one and the same, then why is there any such distinction in the Bible at all? Why not just say "God" or "Jesus" everywhere?)) The answer to this is much the same as- Why did God go by a multitude of names in the Old Testament? The answer is because each name described a different ATTRIBUTE of God. God is not "just" the Father who created the world, and then sat back to watch it's progress. God is not "just" the Son who gave His life to redeem mankind back to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19) and then left man to work out his life alone after that. God is not "just" the Holy Ghost who comes to dwell in the human heart to be that Helper without which man cannot live a life of overcoming sin. God is, as we say- the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Spirit in Sanctification. Jesus was the Creator: Joh 1:10 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." Jesus is our Redeemer: Eph 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" The Spirit is the Sanctifier, and His name is Jesus: 2Th 2:13 "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" 2Co 13:5 "Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 1Co 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you...? 1Co 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all ... 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: SO ALSO IS CHRIST." ((And what about places in which these three elements seem to be acting independently, such as at Jesus' baptism (Matthew 3:16,17)? Is God not a Spirit that fills heaven and earth? Is it not the same God who touches a heart with His Spirit in deepest Africa, and at the same moment in time is there to impart a living soul when a child is born in the frigid Arctic? Are those separate persons? Does God have to be a Separate Person to be, to act, or to do in more than one place at a time? Certainly

NOT! Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD." ((Jesus is there in the flesh, and He SEES the "spirit of God" descending like a dove, and then a voice comes from HEAVEN, saying, "This is my beloved son, in whom I am wellpleased." Now, was Jesus seeing and hearing Himself? You gave the answer yourself- "Jesus is there in the flesh" It was not the humanity of Jesus that was God. It was the Spirit that dwelled within Jesus that was God. Therefore, Jesus in the flesh was just that- the humanity of Christ. Can any man "SEE" a Spirit? No. Therefore, as the scripture says- Matt. 3:16 "he saw the Spirit of God descending LIKE a dove." Whenever something is described as "Like" in scripture, it means "similar to." It is trying to describe a spiritual event in natural language by using similarities. This is merely an instance of a "theophany." Are you familiar with that term? This was also simply the fulfillment of a prophecy given to John the Baptist (John 1:32-33) in order to recognize Jesus. To use this event to prove separate persons, you would have to prove that each separate person of God can only do one thing at a time per person. And again, the bible itself does not SAY these were examples of separate persons. Nor do the apostles anywhere say they understood this event to be evidence of separate persons. ((Was He referring to Himself as His own son? And was he well pleased with himself?)) Let me ask you this- can a man love his own flesh? The Bible says he can- Ephesians 5:28 "So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For NO MAN EVER YET HATED HIS OWN FLESH; BUT NOURISHETH AND CHERISHETH IT, even as the Lord the church..." So why should it not be possible for God the everlasting Spirit to love (cherish) the Son of God in the flesh, who is His own body? ((I am not getting this from some pagan source, I'm simply reading the Bible.)) I agree you are not. My point was to look to Biblically stated descriptions for the "differences" rather than the works of pagan philosophers. That is why I quoted 1 Corinthians 12:4-6,11- "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATIONS, but the same Lord. 6 And there are DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, but it is THE SAME God which worketh all in all... 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT..." Who is all in all? Col. 3:11 "CHRIST IS ALL, and in all." Not a Trinity- Christ. Col. 2:9 "For IN HIM DWELLETH ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 AND YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all..." You see- If we use scripture to define the differences, we come up with "differences of

administrations" and "diversities of operations" yet- "ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT" For another example, let's take 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." We might ask "there are three WHAT that bear record?" But, that verse explained itself already. There are three that bear record, period. We are made in God's image, are we not? Are we Trinity's of Persons? No, we have a soul, body, and mind, but each one of those are "members" of the one person. Each one of those "elements" (as you say) testify of the one "person" in a different way, but none of them are separate persons in us, are they? Does the scripture concur? 1 Corinthians 12:12 "For AS THE BODY IS ONE, AND HATH MANY MEMBERS, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: SO ALSO IS CHRIST... 14 For the body is not one member, but many." Do you see that? "The body has many members... so is CHRIST!" Not the Trinity, but Christ! Many members, each member having separate titles and functions, but only one individual person, and that person has a name, and in this instance it is Jesus Christ! Why different Manifestations ((I was NOT attempting to say that one God would be unable to appear in three different manifestations if he wished.)) I believe that you know God CAN appear in different manifestations at once. That is exactly why I countered that way- because I hoped that would hold validity with you. What I wanted to show you was that was what He was doing there, nothing else. ((I don't understand, however, WHY he would do such a thing. I realize that God's ways are higher than our ways and that we cannot hope to always see his motives, but I also know that God is not the author of confusion. If you were present at Jesus' baptism and you witnessed it as it is described in the Bible, would you not think that there were multiple entities involved?)) Ask yourself this- would a true Hebrew think that he was seeing multiple persons, or merely multiple manifestations? Isa 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD,... THAT YE MAY KNOW and BELIEVE me, AND UNDERSTAND that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." The Jewish religion is probably the purest form of Monotheism in the world- why would they see Separate Persons? Nor do I see multiple entities. Nor did the apostles express that they perceived the manifestations to be multiple entities. My point throughout this thread (and others) has been that- THE SEED OF THE PERCEPTION of "multiple entities" was planted (fathered) by heathen paganism stemming from Babylon- NOT by scripture, NOR by the God of the Bible. Next you ask a MOST EXCELLENT question-

((If God is simultaneously all three, then he must be "putting on a show" so to speak, for the human witnesses.)) You said it, now, let's see if you understand it! :-) The Bible likens receiving the Holy Ghost to the receiving of the law in the Old Testament. One main difference in the NT is that it is for each individual, personally, rather than collectively for the nation Israel. In a previous post I showed how the same elements that were present in the Old Testament, were also present in Acts 2:1-4. Namely- A) God drew the people together, B) There was a physical commotion, C) Fire was present, D) God's words are heard, E) The Lord made Himself present, and wrote His law (onto the tablets in the O.T. and on the heart in the New- 2 Cor. 3:3, 7-9). The main point was that, when one receives the gift of the Holy Ghost- God bears witness with signs following. Specific signs. Keeping your statement in mind (God putting on a show), remember that Jesus is/was "the firstborn among many brethren." -Rom. 8:30. Now look at 1 John 5:5-111 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water (water baptism) only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. You yourself understand that baptism is necessary. Why? Because Jesus commanded it, but also because of this- Mat 3:15 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now (baptism): for THUS IT BECOMETH US TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS..." Jesus was our example, was He not? Read on then, in 1 John1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ARE one. 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three AGREE in one. 1 John 5:9 "If we receive the witness of men, THE WITNESS OF GOD IS GREATER: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son." God did not expect the Jews to take John the Baptist's word (the witness of a man) that Jesus was the Son of God- God Himself bore witness of the fact. And how did He do so? They heard the voice from heaven, and they saw (perceived) the Spirit (God) descending. Keep in mind, that Jesus was the firstborn- He was setting the example for us1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God HATH THE WITNESS IN HIMSELF: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because HE BELIEVETH NOT THE RECORD that GOD GAVE of his Son. "Hath the witness in Himself" can not mean some man said- "say this prayer, and you are

saved." That would be only the witness of man, and not the witness of God! It would be counter to the example that Jesus set as the firstborn of many brethren- born of God by the Spirit with signs manifested- God putting on a show! John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 THE WIND BLOWETH where it listeth, and THOU HEAREST THE SOUND THEREOF, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT." By this verse we know that God is going to voice a sound whereby man will know that he "Hath the witness in Himself" "Not the witness of man" but "the witness of God" For "If we receive THE WITNESS OF MEN, the witness of God is greater: FOR THIS IS THE WITNESS OF GOD WHICH HE HATH TESTIFIED OF HIS SON." In fact, John goes on to say- 1 John 5:10 "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; BECAUSE HE BELIEVETH NOT THE RECORD THAT GOD GAVE OF HIS SON. You better believe you need to be baptized with the Holy Ghost as manifested also with other speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance- the words (witness) of God spoken through man! Act 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and SO IS ALSO THE HOLY GHOST, whom GOD HATH GIVEN TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM." Act 10:45 "...On the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 FOR THEY HEARD THEM SPEAK WITH TONGUES, AND MAGNIFY GOD. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Do you see then how the Holy Ghost, received with the sign of other tongues AS THE SPIRIT GIVES THE UTTERANCE is the witness of God? And those that DO NOT RECEIVE THE WITNESS OF GOD HAVE MADE GOD A LIAR- "BECAUSE HE BELIEVETH NOT THE RECORD THAT GOD GAVE OF HIS SON." The same elements that PROVED that Jesus was the Son of God PROVE that those who receive the Holy Ghost as in Acts 2:1-4 ARE OF GOD, AND ARE THE TRUE BELIEVERS! 1 John 5:11 "And THIS IS THE RECORD, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." And what is that record, but the witness of the inheritance- Eph 1:13 In whom YE ALSO TRUSTED, AFTER THAT YE HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom ALSO AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that Holy Spirit of PROMISE, 14 WHICH IS THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession" Rom 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life

because of righteousness." John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth (makes alive!)" Do you see this?- "THIS IS THE RECORD, that God hath given to us eternal life" God DOES put on a show (so to speak), that we may KNOW that we also are the sons of God, just as Jesus- our firstborn brother! Act 10:45 "...On the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 FOR THEY HEARD THEM SPEAK WITH TONGUES... 11:15 ...as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, AS ON US AT THE BEGINNING (i.e. same as Acts 2:1-4!). 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST. 17 Forasmuch then as GOD GAVE THEM THE LIKE GIFT AS HE DID UNTO US, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, THEN HATH GOD ALSO TO THE GENTILES GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE." WHY? Because- "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself" for "the witness of God is greater: FOR THIS IS THE WITNESS OF GOD WHICH HE HATH TESTIFIED OF HIS SON." ((Is there any part of Jesus which is not a part of God? If so, then what is this other part? Just the body? How can the body alone have lamented the separation from God?)) Jesus wasn't half-man/half-God. He was wholly man, and wholly God. He had a complete humanity, otherwise, He could not have been tempted of sin. Heb 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Different Persons in the Body of Christ? ((If a group of Christians, like a body, becomes "one in Christ" they are none-the-less separate people.)) This comes from 1 Cor. chap. 12, so let's look at that passage in context. First off, notice how in the first part Paul is specifically addressing Who this Spirit/God is that was working in these ex-heathens. Notice especially how, and where Paul SPECIFICALLY says- "one and the selfsame Spirit"1 Cor. 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But THE MANIFESTATION OF the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given BY THE SPIRIT the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge BY THE SAME SPIRIT; 9 To another faith BY THE SAME SPIRIT; to another the gifts of healing BY THE SAME SPIRIT; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For AS the body is one, and hath many members, and all the

members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. " THEN Paul switches over and starts talking about "the body"1 Cor. 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For THE BODY IS NOT ONE MEMBER, BUT MANY. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?... 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body... 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. If you look at the passages in this context, you will notice that God is in the body SPECIFICALLY as "one and the selfsame Spirit." (Remember, I've already quoted before the scriptures that say it was God (the Father) who set in prophets 1 Cor. 12:18,28, and Jesus is the one who sets in prophets- Eph 4:7 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of THE GIFT OF CHRIST... 10 He that descended IS THE SAME ALSO THAT... 11 ...gave... prophets..." Yet 1 Cor. 12:11 says these are all- "one and the selfsame Spirit"). But, when THE BODY PARTS are examined, they are not "separate persons" in the godhead, they are merely separate working "members" of the physical body. For example, your fingers, and your toes, and your eyes are not "separate persons" from you. This is because "WE" the "BODY" of Christ, are not "Separate Persons" of Christ (God), we are merely "members" of the PHYSICAL body through whom He works. The "head" of this body is Christ. There is an important concept to be found in WHY the working members of the body are not "Separate Persons" of Christ, but separate operations and administrations. While you read the scriptures below, ask yourself- is it a good thing that there are divisions of personalities in the "body" or not?1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED together IN THE SAME MIND and in the same judgment. 11 FOR IT HATH BEEN DECLARED UNTO ME OF YOU... THAT THERE ARE CONTENTIONS AMONG YOU. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 IS CHRIST DIVIDED? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" 1 Cor 2:16 For... WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST. 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For YE ARE YET CARNAL: FOR WHEREAS THERE IS AMONG YOU... DIVISIONS, ARE YE NOT CARNAL, AND WALK AS MEN? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" 1 Cor. 11:17 "Now... I praise you not... 18 For first of all... I hear THAT THERE BE DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; and I partly believe it. 19 For THERE MUST BE ALSO

HERESIES AMONG YOU..." You used the separation of persons in the "body" to attempt to "prove" a separation of persons in the godhead. Now imagine all your fingers, toes, and eyes being separate persons, and what have you got? A SCHIZOPHRENIC! And that is what viewing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as "Separate Persons" makes God out to be- a schizophrenic monstrosity with three heads. "What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal spirit BODY, personal SOUL, and personal SPIRIT in the same sense EACH human being... has HIS OWN body, soul, and spirit... " (from an old tract called "The Error of the 'Jesus Only' Doctrine" by Jimmy Swaggart, from the days when he was an accepted Trinitarian minister). I am made in God's image, and I am not a schizophrenic (and I do not feel I am alone in this). Nor do I worship a SCHIZOPHRENIC God! I hope you can see this is what this satanic device has caused in the minds of men. This polytheism opens the door to the exultation, and deification of man. After all, it may be reasoned one step further from such an analogy, based in human reasoning, that since separate people make up Christ's body, and they are the body of Christ- aren't they also then just other "Separate Persons" of God? I sure do hope you can see the evil nature in that. ((When a man and woman marry, they become "one flesh". They are still two people.)) Again- Look at the context of the passage- Eph. 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I SPEAK CONCERNING CHRIST AND THE CHURCH. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even AS himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband." So then, the example you have given was NOT AT ALL written "concerning" the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost whom the Bible has already SPECIFICALLY stated to be "one and the selfsame Spirit." This passage was written SPECIFICALLY "concerning Christ and the Church" that the two are become one flesh. In other words, you have taken this verse out of context, and attempted to make it say something it does not say, to prove a point contrary to something THE BIBLE HAS SPECIFICALLY REFUTED ELSEWHERE. This is not good. In the Bible it is called- Mark 7:13 "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered..." Mark 7:7 "Howbeit IN VAIN (for nothing, no profit or purpose) do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For LAYING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT of God, ye hold the tradition of men... and many other such like things ye do. 9...FULL WELL YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YE MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION." Do you see this? Do you see the error in this type of Biblical interpretation from a scriptural standpoint?

((But if a man's powers of spiritual perception on spiritual issues are so limited, how on earth do you contend that these confusing issues in the Bible, which range into the realm well above spirit, are to be sorted out by the powers of men?)) I agree with this statement here. I don't know where I've done this, but I apologize if I've given the impression that I believe these things can be understood by rationalizing them. Matt 16:16 "Peter... said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, but my Father which is in heaven." SO HOW COME SO MANY CARNAL "CHRISTIAN" SECTS AND DIVISIONS SO EASILY SEE "SEPARATE PERSONS" IN THE GODHEAD? It has to be PRECISELY because the Trinity is NOT the product of any SPIRITUAL revelation, but the product of human philosophical reasoning on the subject (as I have quoted Trinitarians as admitting!) So why would any professing "Christian" feel so moved to want to defend such an earthly minded philosophy as we are seeing here? So why don't you try letting go of your human reasoning and- "Use the force, Luke, USE THE FORCE"! :-) What does the Bible say about this? Colossians 1:26 "Even the mystery which hath been HID FROM AGES AND FROM GENERATIONS, but now is MADE MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS: 27 TO WHOM God would MAKE KNOWN WHAT IS the riches of the glory of THIS MYSTERY among the Gentiles; WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU..." Now, do you see that? The mystery that has been revealed "TO HIS SAINTS," but not to the world- is Christ in us. The Holy Spirit that is IN HIS SAINTS is NOT a "Separate Person" from Jesus Christ. It is only NATURAL for the human mind to come to the conclusion that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are Separate Persons, but it takes a Spiritual revelation to understand JESUS CHRIST (not some other person) IN US (His Saints). But I can't just tell you- "Oh, go figure it out yourself," you know2 Cor. 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." 1 Peter 3:15 "...And be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..." Rom 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" ((And what do you think is the problem with baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and

Holy Ghost? REALLY!)) Simply because there is NO PURPOSE stated in scripture for being baptized into the Father, or Spirit who didn't die. Only by being baptized INTO Jesus Christ are there any RESULTS- Rom. 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized INTO Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" It also is making the commandments of God of none effect by the traditions of men. If saying the words stated in Matthew 28:19 was how the commandment was to be applied, then the apostles broke, and never kept that commandment, making them transgressors, and the whole Bible, which was written through them, suspect. Obviously, I don't believe that. What I have been wanting to show through all these posts are the VERY REAL evils of the Trinity doctrine. And they are many. So, here we go... Trinitarians are the offspring of murderersI have shown (in Just to Set The Record Straight) how that-"This (Trinity doctrine of separation of persons in one substance)- "let loose a fury among mankind that has rarely been paralleled. Millions suffered violence or death in the pursuant wars and persecutions. Hundreds of bishops were exiled or murdered at the command of other bishops who, when the tide turned, visited the same treatment upon their rivals." The Story of Christian Origins, M.A. Larson, New Republic Book, p 572. It is interesting to note that, historically speaking, Trinitarians identify with those paganphilosophers who introduced the idea of Trinity into the church specifically as the "early church fathers." Why do they not call the apostles the "Fathers of the church?" This is a true enigma to me, but the "Early church Fathers" historically designates those that came after the apostles, such as those just spoken of above by Larson. And Jesus says- Mat 23:31 "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that YE ARE THE CHILDREN OF THEM which killed the prophets." Act 7:52 "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the JUST ONE; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers" Do you really not see that justifying the doctrine that let loose a fury of murder, justifies the men by whom the fury was loosed, making one a partaker of the other's evil deeds? The Trinity doctrine joins people to that family, not the family of God in Christ. Trinitarians are called liars by God's wordAll this time, I have asked- show me the scripture that specifically says "God is a Trinity of Separate Persons"? And I have shown all the words that have been added to man's traditions in order to formulate the doctrine. And the Bible says- Prov 30:5 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 ADD THOU NOT UNTO HIS WORDS, LEST he reprove thee, and THOU BE FOUND A LIAR."

Is being found a liar really NOT evil enough in itself to shun the doctrine of the Trinity? The Trinitarian doctrine nullifies the commandments of GodLaying aside the commandment of GodMar 12:29 "The first of all the commandments is... The Lord our God is one Lord" for Gal 3:20 "God is one" and Col 3:11 "Christ is all" Col 2:10 "And ye are complete in him" Trinitarians hold the tradition of men"In the unity of the Godhead there are three persons... the Trinity" R. Bowman, CRI. Making the commandments of God of none effect by your tradition... (Mark 7:8, 13) The Trinitarian doctrine causes God's people to commit spiritual whoredomI have shown that the doctrine of the Trinity comes from Babylon"THE ANCIENT BABYLONIANS... RECOGNIZED IN WORDS THE UNITY of the Godhead; and... IN THE UNITY OF THAT ONE ONLY GOD OF THE BABYLONIANS, THERE WERE THREE PERSONS... THE RECOGNITION OF A TRINITY WAS UNIVERSAL IN ALL THE ANCIENT NATIONS OF THE WORLD..." -The Two Babylons, chapter 2, by Rev. A. Hislop. About this God says- Deut 6:14 "YE SHALL NOT GO AFTER OTHER GODS, of the gods of the people which are round about you" Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: 15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and THEY GO A WHORING AFTER THEIR GODS..." The Trinity doctrine corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ through the subtilty of Satan2 Cor. 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Trinitarians themselves admit- "...It is possible to call Jesus God and still have another Jesus (2 Cor. 11:4), if in calling Him God one means something significantly different from what the Bible means... It is doubtful that any heretic... has ever admitted to denying the Son. Instead, HERETICS OF ALL KINDS HAVE SIMPLY REDEFINED THE MEANING OF THE TERM SON..." A Trinitarian RE-definition of Christ- "...What the Bible means... when the Bible says that Jesus is God, it means that He exists eternally as a divine person in relationship with the Father... it means that He is the second person of a triune God" -Ralph Bowman, Christian

Research International. Defined- "I Jesus...I am... the FIRST AND THE LAST..." -Revelation 22:13-16. REDEFINED- "He is the second person of a triune God" -Bowman. Trinitarians are reprobate, deceivers, and anti-Christ2 Cor. 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus CHRIST IS IN YOU, EXCEPT YE BE REPROBATES?" "From heaven Jesus still exercises lordship over us, but, NOT BEING physically (i.e. in the flesh-TomR) WITH US NOW, He transmits His directions by means of the Holy Spirit..." Dr. Billy Graham, The Holy Spirit, page 5. 2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, WHO CONFESS NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH. THIS IS A DECEIVER AND AN ANTICHRIST." A question to the Trinitarians out thereIf Jesus Christ is in His saints, but the Spirit in you is a separate person from Jesus Christ, WHO IS IT THAT IS IN YOU? "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-christ" -2 John 7. According to George Ricker Berry's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, 2 John 7 literally reads, in the original Greek- "...Those who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh- this is the deceiver and the anti-christ". For comparison's sake, the Greek word "erkomenouz - coming" here in 2 John 7, is the same word and form as "coming" in Matt. 16:28. The word used in 1 John 4:2 & 3 is "eleluthota - is come" being a present tense form of the word "eltho - to come" and not a past tense form such as "elthon - came", used in Matt. 8:2, nor a future tense form as "eleuoetai - will come", in Acts 1:11. 1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come (present tense) in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist..." Now, let me ask you, or anyone else who would still think it is very important to defend the Trinity doctrineWHAT EVIL IS THERE, SCRIPTURALLY, IN LIFTING UP THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST ABOVE ALL NAMES? John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up." John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he

will shew you things to come. 14 HE SHALL GLORIFY ME: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine..." What evil is there in uncompromisingly defending and obeying the first commandment of Jesus Christ? Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" 1 John 2:3 "And HEREBY WE DO KNOW that we know him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth (Jesus Christ) is not in him. 1 John 5:20 "And WE KNOW that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, AND ETERNAL LIFE. 21 Little children, KEEP YOURSELVES FROM IDOLS (falsehoods). Amen. John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE (see above): no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, HAVE I BEEN SO LONG TIME WITH YOU, AND YET HAST THOU NOT KNOWN ME, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" Scriptural Definitions ((Can the Oneness doctrine be described through scriptural quotes alone?)) "...There is one God..." -1 Timothy 2:5. "God is a Spirit..." -John 4:24. "There is... one Spirit..." -Ephesians 4:4. "...One and the selfsame Spirit..." 1 Corinthians 12:11. "Now the Lord is that Spirit..." -2 Corinthians 3:17. "There is...one Lord..." -Ephesians 4:4-5. "...Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)" -Acts 10:36. "THE FIRST OF ALL THE COMMANDMENTS IS, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD (JESUS) OUR GOD IS ONE LORD..." -Mark 12:29. "...Believe me, and understand that I am He: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour... Thus saith the Lord, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel... I AM THE LORD, YOUR HOLY ONE, the creator of Israel, your King" -Isaiah 43:10-15.

"David speaketh concerning Him (Jesus of Nazareth),... thine HOLY ONE..." -Acts 2:2527. 1 Corinthians 12:4 "NOW THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF GIFTS, BUT THE SAME SPIRIT. 5 AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATIONS, BUT THE SAME LORD. 6 AND THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, BUT IT IS THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL... 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will." "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (Father) and the offspring (Son) of David" -Revelations 22:16. "For unto us a child is born, UNTO US A SON IS GIVEN: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME SHALL BE called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE mighty God, THE everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" -Isaiah 9:6 For "God is one" -Galatians 3:20 And "...Christ is all..." -Colossians 3:11. "And ye are complete in Him..." -Colossians 2:10. ((Do Trinitarians preach "another Christ"?)) Following is a passage I wrote during some correspondence I had with a man named B. J. O'ropeza from the Christian Research Institute. Rather than answer my questions for himself from the quoted scripture, as I had requested of him, he provided me with some writings by an author named Robert M. Bowman Jr.. I actually picked up another very strong weapon against the Trinity doctrine from those correspondences, BY THEIR VERY OWN WORDS! Let me show you what I mean(( That's not hard to accept, is it? but read my reply quoting and responding to other of his statements((COMPARECHRIST'S DEFINITION OF HIMSELF- "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty... I am He that liveth, and was dead" -Rev. 1:8,18. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the FIRST and the LAST... I Jesus..." -Revelation 22:13-16. What He who is the First and Last said of Himself in the Old Testament- "Thus saith the Lord... I am the First, and I am the Last; and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD... Is there a God beside me?... there is no God; I know not any" -Isaiah 44:6-8. BOWMAN'S REDEFINITION OF CHRIST "...What the Bible means... when the Bible says that Jesus is God, it means that He exists eternally as a divine person in relationship with the Father... IT MEANS THAT HE IS THE SECOND PERSON OF A TRIUNE GOD" -Bowman.

DEFINED- "I am... the FIRST AND THE LAST... I Jesus..." -Revelation 22:13-16. REDEFINED- "He is the second person of a triune God" -Bowman.))> See what I mean- "HERETICS OF ALL KINDS HAVE SIMPLY REDEFINED THE MEANING OF THE TERM SON..." Those are their very words, and then they go and redefine Jesus! It's amazing how obvious errors are to those who have and love the truth! In fact, Mr. Bowman made quite a few scriptural blunders in his defense of the Trinity doctrine, as for instance, another passage I wrote to CRI relates"In contrast to the entirely Biblically defined and stated doctrine presented above, we have been told by Trinitarian authors, such as Bowman, to believe instead on the TRINITY- Do Trinitarians rely on scripture alone to define their doctrine? "The doctrine of the Trinity was concisely stated by the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647)..." -Bowman. Are Trinitarians able to rely on scriptural terminology alone to defend their beliefs? "The Trinity... doctrine employs nonbiblical terminology (Trinity, persons, etc.)... this is true..."Bowman. Do Trinitarians rely solely on explicitly stated scripture in deriving their doctrine? "...Jesus... IMPLIED that He and the Father were two persons..."-Bowman." By the way, in his article on Oneness vs. Trinity, under his heading of "Definition" Bowman did NOT QUOTE OR REFER TO EVEN ONE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE. Yet he has the audacity to accuse "Oneness Pentecostals" of redefining the Godhead. Incredulous! So who do you believe- Jesus, or the Trinitarian "scholars"? "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua 24:15. So, prove to me that you aren't "redefining" Jesus (and thus a heretic) by quoting the scriptures that specifically define Him as being a Trinity of Persons! His Commandment (( There seems plenty of Biblical evidence that God is Three distinct persons and yet is also One.)) 1 John 3:23 "And THIS IS HIS commandment, That we should BELIEVE ON THE NAME of his Son Jesus Christ" When considering the nature of the Godhead, we MUST remember to keep the first COMMANDMENT of Jesus ChristMark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD" Let's see if we can agree on thisWe must learn NOT TO INTERPRET BY WHAT THE BIBLE IMPLIES, but what it explicitly states, especially while considering how other scriptures bear upon the interpretation. Whenever we have an interpretation of scripture that CONTRADICTS other explicitly stated scripture, it isn't the scripture that is wrong, but OUR PERSONAL, INCOMPLETE interpretation. Our interpretation of scripture can only be true, IF IT

HARMONIZES ALL PASSAGES related to the subject. Are we in agreement with this? Let me give you some examples based on your statements, and answered with SPECIFIC, EXPLICITLY STATED scripture. (This post is not written with the intention to demean you in anyway, so please don't take it that way, OK?) ((There seems plenty of Biblical evidence that God is Three distinct persons and yet is also One.)) My question back to you is- A) Is it enough to rely on what the Bible "SEEMS" to say? (In other words- Is it okay to interpret by the implicit as in "seems plenty"? And B) Do we have other scriptures, bearing directly on the subject, that EXPLICITLY CONTRADICT this interpretation? My answers would be A) NO (NO), and B) YES, most definitely! For instance1 Cor. 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but THE SAME Spirit. 5 And there are DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATIONS, but the same Lord. 6 And there are DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, but it is THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL... 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will." Notice that in this place, where Paul IS EXPLICITLY DEFINING THE GODHEAD, separation of "persons" is not mentioned or even considered, but is EXPLICITLY CONTRADICTED!!! Since the Bible says GOD gave the gift of prophets1 Cor 12:28 "And GOD HATH SET some IN the church, first apostles, secondarily PROPHETS..." But it also says that Jesus is THE ONE AND THE SAME who gave prophetsEph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of THE GIFT OF CHRIST... 10 He that descended IS THE SAME ALSO THAT ascended up far above all heavens, that HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS.) 11 And HE GAVE SOME, apostles; and SOME, PROPHETS..." Yet the scripture is also most adamant that it was the Holy Ghost that gives prophets1 Cor. 12:9 "...BY THE SAME SPIRIT; 10 ...to another PROPHECY..." Therefore, as the scripture saysCol. 3:11 "...CHRIST IS ALL, and in all." Notice that the scripture says- "CHRIST IS ALL." Jesus also said- Rev 1:17 "I AM THE

FIRST AND THE LAST: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead..." So here we have Jesus Himself refuting the false interpretation that He is "merely" the "Second Person in the Trinity" as Trinitarians claim. Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil YOU through philosophy and vain deceit, AFTER THE TRADITION OF MEN, after the rudiments of the world, AND NOT AFTER CHRIST. 9 For IN HIM dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all..." ((What about John 1:1?)) John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." As you have stated- "Now, Who is 'The Word'? John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." THIS IS OBVIOUSLY REFERRING TO JESUS. So then, let's interpret John 1:1, and USE THE NAME WE ARE COMMANDED TO BELIEVE IN!!! John 1:1 "In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with God, and (Jesus) was God." So now, who is "God" that is in John 1:1? He is Jesus! But, what about 1 Corinthians 8?1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER..." OK, let's interpret John 1:1, again, using scripture to interpret scriptureJohn 1:1 "In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with (GOD, THE FATHER), and (Jesus) was (GOD, THE FATHER)." Where is a Trinity of persons then? And where is the contention over complete Oneness and Fullness in Christ? For Jesus testified, and revealed of Himself this very same thingRev 22:13 "I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, the beginning and the end, THE FIRST AND THE LAST (NOT SECOND PERSON!)...I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM THE ROOT (Father) AND THE OFFSPRING (Son) of David..." Rev 21:6 "AND HE SAID unto me, It is done. I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I WILL BE HIS GOD, and he shall be MY SON."!!! Now- watch what happens to John 1:1 if we say that "God" is a "Trinity" of personsJohn 1:1 "In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with (The Trinity), AND (JESUS) WAS (The Trinity)."

Again, where are separations of persons here? So you see, if we USE SCRIPTURE TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we can only come to ONE conclusion. Namely that1 Cor. 12:11 "ALL these worketh that ONE and the SELFSAME Spirit..." Phi 1:19 "...the Spirit of Jesus Christ" Col. 3:11 "...CHRIST IS ALL..." Colossians 2:10 "And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM..." ((Why did Jesus differentiate between Himself and the Father, for example John 8:26-27?)) "I have many things to say and to judge of you: but HE THAT SENT ME is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. John 8:27 "They understood not that he spake to them OF THE FATHER." I didn't say Jesus didn't differentiate. The question is, what is the meaning or DEFINITION of the differences AS SPECIFICALLY, EXPLICITLY SCRIPTURALLY STATED? 1 Cor. 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but THE SAME Spirit. 5 And there are DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATIONS, but THE SAME Lord. 6 And there are DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, but it is THE SAME God which worketh all in all... 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will." If these differences are "separate persons" why did not Paul say so? Why did not the church recognize this until hundreds of years AFTER THE APOSTLES? "When one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century... From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention. In a sense this is true... The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title 'the Trinitarian dogma'"-The New Catholic Encyclopedia pgs. 295-305. Like it or not, it was not with Jesus or the apostles that the Trinity doctrine entered the church. It was by pagan philosophers attempting to COMPROMISE their pagan beliefs with Christianity"The Holy Trinity- the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity... The question as to how to reconcile the encounter with God in this threefold figure (The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit) with faith in THE ONENESS OF GOD, which **WAS** THE JEWS' AND CHRISTIANS' CHARACTERISTIC MARK OF DISTINCTION over against paganism, agitated the piety of ancient Christendom in the deepest way... This question was ANSWERED IN THE NEOPLATONIC METAPHYSICS of being... CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY TOOK THE NEOPLATONIC METAPHYSICS of substance as well as its

doctrine of hypostasis as THE DEPARTURE POINT for interpreting the relationship of the 'Father' to the 'Son'..." -Encyclopedia Britannica, 1974, 15th edition, vol. 4, page 485. ((How about Eph. 3:9, etc.?)) Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things BY Jesus Christ" Does the Bible EXPLICITLY SAY a "Trinity" created? Isaiah 41:20 That they may SEE, and KNOW, and CONSIDER, and UNDERSTAND together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel HATH CREATED IT." Who IS the Holy One? Act 2:27 "...Thine Holy One... 32 This Jesus..." Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF..." And who is this Lord? Isaiah 54:5 "For THY MAKER IS THINE HUSBAND; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer THE HOLY ONE of Israel..." 2 Cor. 11:2 "...For I have espoused you TO ONE husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin TO CHRIST." Act 9:5 "And he said, Who art thou, Lord? AND THE LORD SAID, I AM JESUS whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. ((Who did Jesus pray to in the garden of Gethsemene?)) Would you have one God here praying to ANOTHER GOD? Can God pray to God? WAS Jesus NOT Omnipotent, and therefore needed to pray for Himself? I think you'll agree with me that the answer is NO to these questions, right? So let's ask the more pertinent question- WHY did Jesus pray? First off, He came to fulfill and obey the law"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but TO FULFILL" -Matthew 5:17. He could not have FULFILLED the law, if He had not kept the law. The law said"O thou that hearest PRAYER, UNTO THEE shall ALL FLESH come" -Psalm 65:2. "...As CONCERNING THE FLESH CHRIST CAME, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" -Romans 9:5.

"And the Word WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us..." -John 1:14. "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come IN THE FLESH is not of God..." -1 John 4:3. FOR WHOM then, did Jesus pray? "...I HAVE GIVEN YOU AN EXAMPLE, THAT YE SHOULD DO AS I HAVE DONE..." -John 13:15. "And He said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily, and follow me" -Luke 9:23. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who...made Himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, HE HUMBLED HIMSELF and became obedient unto death..." -Philippians 2:5-8. "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow..." -1 Peter 2:21. Now, let me ask you this- How else could Jesus have exemplified how to pray, without teaching us to pray to our own selves? Jesus was both God, and man. Not part God, and part man. But fully God, and fully man. It was not the deity of Christ that prayed- it was the man. He thereby set an example, in the flesh, of how we are to pray, without praying to ourselves. ((When Jesus was 13 did he not rebuke his parents saying. " I am about my FATHERS business")) We must consider the CONTEXT of this statement! :-) Is God a man? Did GOD begin as a boy, and grow into a man? Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." And yetLuke 2:52 "...Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Are these contradictory? Only if they are taken out of context. It was the humanity (flesh) that grew in stature, and it is deity that is the same yesterday, and to day, and forever. ForRev 22:13 "...I JESUS... testify unto you these things... I AM THE ROOT (One God, the Father) AND THE OFFSPRING (begotten Son in the flesh)..." ((We are supposed to worship the Father, Believe in the Son and receive the Holy Spirit.)) Where is that stated? How is that stated? Does it SPECIFICALLY STATE THREE PERSONS, OR NOT?

Because THE COMMANDMENT STATES: Mar 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, THE FIRST OF ALL THE COMMANDMENTS is, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD" Again, let's use scripture to interpret scripture, since we know by scripture who these are1 Cor. 8:6 "...To us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER... and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST." Therefore, the FIRST COMMANDMENT OF ALL, becomesMark 12:29 "THE FIRST OF ALL THE COMMANDMENTS is... THE (one) LORD (Jesus Christ) OUR (one) GOD (the Father) IS ONE LORD (Jesus Christ)." Or in other words- "(Jesus Christ) OUR GOD (the Father) IS ONE (Jesus Christ)." 1 John 3:23 "And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, That we should BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." Gal 3:20 "Now... God is one." And... Col 3:11 "Christ is all..." Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all..." Definition of Oneness Pentecostal (( Perhaps you can explain the definition of the term 'Oneness Pentecostal' for me?)) On being "Oneness Pentecostal"...(Oh but I do hate titles, don't you?) Oneness refers to our rejection of the doctrine of separate persons in the Godhead. That Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That Christ is all (col. 3:11) and that we "are complete in Him" (Col. 2:10). Pentecostal refers to our belief in receiving the Holy Ghost exactly as on the day of Pentecost- as evidenced by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. (This is to distinguish from others who teach themselves to gibber and call that tongues. It is not, it is gibberish if it is at all coerced by man- self or tutor.) The tongues are merely the outward manifestation of a GLORIOUS new birth that is being spiritually manifested within the soul. That reminds me. Are you familiar with the expression "Latter Rain" from the scriptures? The latter rain, also known as "Pentecostalism" began on New Years day, 1901 just as prophesied!

Joel 2:23 "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." (This prophecy, and it's fulfillment in Pentecostalism, is also in harmony with prophecy about the church of Philadelphia in Rev. 3, and in the rest of Joel's prophecy of restoring the church to full blossom.) It happened in Topeka Kansas at a Bible School led by a man named Charles Parham. He had been earnestly seeking God, with his followers, for a closer walk with God. He was preparing for a trip and left the class with a question for them to study- Is there any initial evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost in the Bible, and what is it? When he returned, the class, who had all studied on their own, had come to the unanimous conclusion- the baptism of the Holy Ghost was always received with the initial sign of speaking in tongues. They began praying for this phenomenon, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Shortly after midnight, January 1, 1901 one of the ladies told Mr. Parham that she had seen a vision that if he would lay hands on her, she would receive the Holy Ghost. He did, and she did. And the latter rain began- in the first month (and the first day, and the first year of the centennial!) The movement spread from Kansas to Texas, where a black man named W.J. Seymour took the experience with him to Azusa Street, Pasadena, California. This was in 1906. From there the Pentecostal movement spread like wildfire across the world and across denominational lines. It was there in 1913 that baptism in Jesus' name once again became a major practice by God's people. The people from that movement or revival from God began to spread the orginal Gospel message of the Oneness of God, the available gifts of the Holy Spirit and baptism in His name (Jesus). By the '60's this movement had, again as prophesied, begun to wax cold. And now we are in the days of the church of Laodicea! Many today who once held the truth have now begun to adopt new and unscriptural doctrines such as women preachers, homosexual clergy and red socialism. We are told by God through His word to live 100% for Him, and especially so in these final times. "Let your waists (loins) be girded about, and your lamps burning; And you yourselves be like unto men that wait for their Lord (Jesus), when he will return from the wedding; that when he comes and knocks, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:35-36) Be prayed up, packed up and ready for His soon return. Regardless of the time, our last day could be this day and if we are not ready - then what? We must practice the Boy Scouts motto of always being prepared. God bless you. 2 Thes 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST." Do not be shaken but remain always on the sure foundation of Christ. Jesus is coming soon.